Training news updates

[Hoshifransu 0]

I was doubtful :-P and I watched again :-Q my recorded video tape and right after speaking with Sumo-girl (Aww...) Britta Kreth, they really talked about a "drei hundert kilos Kolosse" ... I think they exagerated in the report because he does not seem to be heavier than Konishiki ...

Many thanks for the link and for giving to us the name of the wrestler ! He's fantastic, I hope we will see him soon in next championships ! [:-P

BTW, did someone watch DSF Fitness-Show called "Come on Baby" when German-American George Jones had a special guest who was Alex Czerwinsky ? Alex is still a big hope for German Amateur Sumo and the man from Rostock trains hard at Berlin with mate "World Champion" J

[Usagi 40]

I certainly don't like the idea, that some guys ruin their health just to become better sumotori. But if somebody already is fat (sorry, there is no better word for it) and finds with Sumo a sport, where he can use his weight, than I think it's great. Good luck and best wishes to Ruud, who is now training 5 or 6 times a week, as is to be read on the website chijanofuji found. I guess his health will have improved since he practices Sumo.

About Alex Czerwinsky: I think Alex is a great showman with a big shot of humor and certainly doing a good job promoting sumo on german TV. I found him as well in an evening Show ("Verstehen sie Spa

[Guest Kaikitsune]

Takanohana formally announced his participation in Aki basho. Still his training regime is very light.

Takanohana probably faces Takamisakari on shonichi.

Chiyotaikai is full of steam and enthusiasm. After returning from Kokonoe-beya summer camp on 13th August he has done gym training under the supervision of his personal trainer. He looks forward the basho waiting to see what has his good training produced. He also met Kaio and told him he better be ready for some degeiko later even though he knew Kaio was not sure about his condition yet. Obviously when they trained together prior to Natsu basho, the sessions were spirited and lucrative for both of them. Hopefully Kaio is in shape to do intense keiko with Chiyotaikai before the basho!

(Thanks to Amanogawa helping significantly in translating the article covering this :-P

[Guest Kaikitsune]

Takanohana had 10 training bouts against 172kg Takanonami on Tuesday winning all 10. He was able to throw Nami to either side with uwatenage. His oyakata looked pleased.

Asashoryu had 12 training bout against Aminishiki, Asanowaka and Toki winning 10. He showed preponderant strength in many bouts.

Musashimaru weighed 236kg at the official weigh-in. He said his 237kg few days earlier was due to having eaten plenty of rice :-P

Azumazeki-oyakata is happy. Takamisakari as shin-komusubi and Ushiomaru as shin-makuuchi, he has all the reason to feel content. Takamisakari said he felt desperate when falling down to makushita in the aftermath of his ACL-reconstruction surgery.

[Guest Kaikitsune]

Actually I think Maru was 237kg at the weigh-in. Kaio weighed 175kg which is 4kg more than in last weigh-in. Asashoryu marked career high at 137kg. The average weight in makuuchi was 155kg but naturally Maru distorts that average a bit upwards.

[Hoshifransu 0]

when I zapped through the Channels

You too ? I carry on zapping a lot through the many German Channels of Astra Satellite and I don't watch very much my local French Channels ... so few that last time I had my mother on the phone who asked me the weather we will have in Paris (because she lives in Bordeaux, South of France) and here I realized the time I spent on zapping with German Channels because I knew the weather in Germany and not the weather in Paris ...

I zapped a lot through Hot Bird in the past and much less today since they retired both Spanish channels, Sky News and some others ... and I watch a lot Swedish TV4 through Thor2 satellite ...

Hot Bird changed a lot with new Polish Channels added but in the past they broadcasted a good Polish Channel (which has been retired) which was RTL7. So, some 1 and a half year ago RTL7 broadcasted a report on Amateur Sumo in Poland and we watched an amazing Polish wrestler who had a job of butcher and each evening he trained his oshi-zumo power, pushing hard huge blocks of meat, which reminded a bit of Sylvester Stallone in Rocky 1, boxing against blocks of meat too ! Unfortunately, I didn't register this report and I cannot remember the name of the wrestler ...

Takanohana formally announced his participation in Aki basho

At last ! Very good news ! I'm looking forward to watching the return of Takanohana and if he's still so efficient than in the past ... I don't think he will be able to win the basho but he won't have forgotten his technics and he will make a good record, something like 11 wins, I would say.

Chiyotaikai is full of steam and enthusiasm

With a very possible kyujo of Tochiazuma, Chiyo avoids a defeat for sure and so, he's got a better chance to become Yokozuna ...

I like his style but frankly I didn't find him so performant during the last two years to become Yokozuna, even if he wins the basho to come ... He hardly managed to stay Ozeki in the past, that this would be really strange to watch him as Yokozuna ... The big problem for him would be to run as Yokozuna, after that. Because he would have to retire if he makes some other 7-8 or 8-7 poor Sanyaku records ...

Musashimaru weighed 236kg at the official weigh-in.

236kg of happiness ! Come on, Maru, catch 240 for the happiness of huge heavy-weights fans ! I remember him with some 216 kilos last year, very impressive he gained 20 more within a year ...

Huge thanx to Kaikitsune-zeki for these precious great infos !

[Zentoryu 154]

With a very possible kyujo of Tochiazuma, Chiyo avoids a defeat for sure and so, he's got a better chance to become Yokozuna ...

I like his style but frankly I didn't find him so performant during the last two years to become Yokozuna, even if he wins the basho to come ... He hardly managed to stay Ozeki in the past, that this would be really strange to watch him as Yokozuna ... The big problem for him would be to run as Yokozuna, after that. Because he would have to retire if he makes some other 7-8 or 8-7 poor Sanyaku records ...

Not including the times he's been injured, he has been a good Ozeki, usually managing 10-11 wins per basho, particularly in the last year or so. To say he has "hardly managed to stay Ozeki" is a bit harsh. (I apologize if I misunderstand your meaning).

Chiyo will be fine as a Yokozuna and, barring injury or a sudden loss of skill (unlikely), he should enjoy a long run at that rank. Just how good he will get (ie, how many Yusho he will win) remains to be seen.

236kg of happiness ! Come on, Maru, catch 240 for the happiness of huge heavy-weights fans ! I remember him with some 216 kilos last year, very impressive he gained 20 more within a year ...

Maru gaining weight is fine, as long as it doesn't affect his movement on the dohyo. Once it does, he becomes just another Konishiki and, as a Yokozuna, he can't afford that. There is such a thing as being to big for your own good, just ask Akebono's knees...

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

But if somebody already is fat (sorry, there is no better word for it) (SNIP)

And there shouldn't be. I, for example, am fat. Fat as fat can be. Perhaps not 237 but 105 and that's plenty enough for me.

Please don't hesitate calling fat people fat. :-P On the other hand what really gets into my nerves (and this has nothing to do with any one person as I'm speaking of people purely as a collective now) is that fat people are somehow thought to be lacking in just about any desirable characteristics.

Moreover, people seem to have no hesitations to utter their less than well meaning brain farts at us. They would never do it to people different from them based on some other criteria than fatness but once you're fat, you're free game for anyone to ridicule.  :-@  (Grr...)  (I am with stupid...)  (Going nuts...)  (Unhappy...)

Well, enough for today... (Devilish thought)

[Hoshifransu 0]

To say he has "hardly managed to stay Ozeki" is a bit harsh

You're right, surely it's an harsh and severe judgement because he was many times injured, of course.

But the statistics proved Chiyotaikai isn't a great Ozeki :

-------------

in Makuuchi

-------------

9/1997 8-7

11/1997 6-9

1/1998 9-6

3/1998 8-7

5/1998 8-7

-------------

as Sekiwake

-------------

7/1998 11-4

9/1998 9-6

11/1998 10-5

1/1999 13-2 (Y)

-------------

as Ozeki

-------------

3/1999 3-8-4

5/1999 0-0-15

7/1999 10-5

9/1999 10-5

11/1999 9-6

1/2000 9-6

3/2000 8-7

5/2000 11-4

7/2000 11-4

9/2000 10-5

11/2000 9-6

1/2001 2-2-11

3/2001 0-0-15

5/2001 12-3

7/2001 11-4

9/2001 4-5-6

11/2001 0-0-15

1/2002 13-2

3/2002 7-8

5/2002 11-4

7/2002 14-1 (Y)

The detailed perfs as Ozeki gave :

15-0 0

14-1 1

13-2 1

12-3 1

11-4 4

10-5 3

9-6 3

8-7 1

7-8 1

4-5-6 1

3-8-4 1

2-2-11 1

0-0-15 3

----------------

164-85-66

1 Yusho as Ozeki

To compare, Musashimaru's performances as Ozeki :

15-0 1

14-1 0

13-2 4

12-3 10

11-4 5

10-5 5

9-6 5

8-7 2

---------

353-127

Yusho : 4

In fact, the big problem for Chiyotaikai is at any moment, he never justified his rank of Ozeki : at any time in his career, he never made the famous 33 on 3 straight basho to become Ozeki !

With the strict rule of the 33, Chiyotaikai would be Sekiwake today again : he never reached 33 before his promotion and during his Ozeki career ...

And I'm sorry, but if we attend another "weak basho" with a lot of kyujo and if Chiyo wins it and if the rule of 2 yusho in a row is applied to be Yokozuna, wouldn't this be a sort of promotion from Sekiwake to Yokozuna ... ?

I, for example, am fat

No, you're not fat. You're one of these strong men from Skandinavia, you're a strong Viking !

[Guest Kaikitsune]

Takanohana continued training against Takanonami. This time winning 11 and losing 2. Again strong sumo by Taka but Nami may be sparing his most determined defensive tricks against Taka...

Chiyotaikai went to Takasago-beya for de-geiko with Chiyotenzan. Taikai won 24 out of 26 bouts against Takamisakari, Toki, Chiyotenzan and others looking tremendously strong in many bouts. He just finished weight training program and said he still feels a bit stiff. Asashoryu didn't participate. In fact he seemed to be as guest in some radio show.

Wakanosato, Kotomitsuki and Takanowaka had spirited training sessions. If I am not mistaken, Wakanosato won 4 out of 7 bouts against Kotomitsuki and the bouts were very intense. Then again the article might be covering their prior honbasho meeting records. Japanese competent individuals could kindly check the article and correct my claims is needed!

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

No, you're not fat. You're one of these strong men from Skandinavia, you're a strong Viking !

[Tony 16]

I find Hoshifransu very hard with Chiyotaikai!

He's a good ozeki. His problem : lack of regularity on several tournaments. But, since Hatsu basho 2002, he had changed ( 13-2, 7-8 ( injury ), 11-4, 14-1 ).

In comparison, Musashimaru is better but he's one of great ozeki of every time! In Ozumo's history, ozeki as Kotozakura, Kitanofuji, got poor results ( 9-6, 10-5 ) and were promoted yokozuna despite this fact because they exploded on three consecutive tournaments!

So, I think that Chiyotaikai could become yokozuna in september. Good ozeki can become great yokozuna ( cf Kitanofuji ).

[Hoshifransu 0]

181/105

You're not fat : you've got the ideal height and weight for a forwarder in Rugby ! In South of France, you would have been hooked by many coaches to make a try ! You don't believe me ? Check that !

All my friends above 90 kilos when, youngster, I was at school near Bordeaux, tried a rugby experience and one of my former school mates, David Banquet, 123 kilos for 1m80, plays for French first division rugby side B

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

I find Hoshifransu very hard with Chiyotaikai !

For sure, I am. But admit that would be a poor promotion ... ?

Well, I suppose it wasn't me you asked, but my opinion is not at all that it would be a bad promotion. Chiyotaikai has taken his Ozumo and qualities to new heights. I don't think his early Ozeki results or results while injured should be used against him when considering him as Yokozuna. In that case no one short of dai-yokozunas as Takanohana or Taiho would ever be considered for Yokozuna (note that I didn't mention Chiyonofuji, since his records before becoming yokozuna were far from impressive). If Chiyotaikai can show, by winning a second consecutive yusho, meaning his third overall, that he has the power to come up with the wins consistently, it's a proper promotion. Neither a very good one nor a bad one, but pretty much a standard one. Few Ozeki (not becoming yokozuna) manages to win 3 yusho, and Chiyotaikai has lately looked impressive enough to probably add more to his belt in the future. A promotion would be slightly surprising, since we didn't see it coming a year ago, but it would not be a bad one, in my opinion.

[Chiyozakura 163]

I fully agree with Yubi. Chiyotaikai really impressed me last basho. Not only was his tsuki/oshi attack stronger than ever but he also kept away from pulling his opponent. He seems to have improved his skills once the tachi-ai does not bring the match his way. Still there is doubt whether he would have been as dominant last basho if the other three Ozeki, who all beat him in May, had not been kyujo.

Chiyotaikai will not be a dominant Yokozuna in my eyes. In contrast to Maru or Takanohana he needs to be on top of his game to succeed. Once he is only 80% he has problems winning in doube figures. If his timing at the tachi-ai is weak he struggles against most Sanyaku rikishi. Then again most of us did not believe that Maru could become the dominant force in Sumo as his performances prior to his Yokozuna promotion had been unstable. He nearly suffered a make koshi just three basho before his Yokozuna debut, despite his major rivals not being as strong as they were in the middle of the 90's.

Maybe Chiyotaikai can stabilize his Sumo on the level he showed in July. I really hope so as a new Yokozuna would be interesting. But my guess is that he will go 11-4 in Aki.

[Zentoryu 154]

For sure, I am. But admit that would be a poor promotion ... ?

No it would not be (were it to occur). You are holding Chiyotakai's entire career as an Ozeki (and even before) against him. His more recent performance (in non-injured basho) over the last year shows that he is greatly improved as an Ozeki in comparison to the time he was first promoted. When it comes to a possible Yokozuna promotion, this is all that should be considered. The only thing that should count is recent performance. It is also probably the only thing the deliberation council looks at.

Good Ozeki are expected to win 10-11 bouts per tournament. Chiyotaikai has done that. The only time he hasn't was when he was injured, or back when he was first promoted and was afflicted with that pulling problem he has.

Chiyo's record in the last three "injury free" basho is very impressive. Throw out the 7-8, injury affected, Haru basho and Chiyo has an outstanding 38-7 record in Hatsu, Natsu, and Nagoya, with one Yusho and one Jun-Yusho.

I have no idea whether he'll be a good Yokozuna. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. But if he goes out there during Aki and wins the Yusho, his second straight, then in my mind he certainly deserves the promotion, and it would not be a poor one, IMHO.

[Hoshifransu 0]

Well, 3 good analysis previously, but some parameters make me believe this would really be an undeserved promotion :

Chiyo won last basho with a smashing 14-1, OK, but a weak basho with no other Ozeki, and even Wakanosato made a smashing 12-3 performance, and Tosanoumi won promotion for the first time from a Sanyaku rank ...

So, if we attend another weak basho, this would be two "weak Yusho" in a row for Chiyotaikai and would this be worth a Yokozuna promotion ? Not really ... I would have prefered the Kyokai to wait for another third Yusho in a row in that situation ...

As I wrote previously, Chiyo would still be Sekiwake  currently with the strict rule of the 33 wins and statistically, it's only at his 14th basho as Ozeki that he caught 12 wins and only at his 18th basho that he caught 13 wins as Ozeki ...

But, I'm sorry to say that and to offend his fans but more than 50 percent of his basho as Ozeki were 9-6 records and lower (including kyujo) and I don't imagine how he could avoid these poor performances as Yokozuna, and so, he will have to retire soon if that happens ...

For me, at the moment, if he can improve a little bit again and make it two Yusho in a row, the most regular, the real Yokozuna to come would be Asashoryu ... But let's already watch what he can do as Ozeki !

Perhaps my analysis is too severe because I wanted to compare Chiyotaikai to current Yokozuna who are all "great Yokozuna" (10 Yusho and more for Maru, Takanohana and Akebono previously) so this is a severe judgement, because he could be promoted Yokozuna to become a good Yokozuna and not a great Yokozuna !

BTW, if that happens, do you think there's a chance Chiyotaikai would change his shikona to become Chiyonofuji ?

[Zentoryu 154]

So, if we attend another weak basho, this would be two "weak Yusho" in a row for Chiyotaikai and would this be worth a Yokozuna promotion ? Not really ... I would have prefered the Kyokai to wait for another third Yusho in a row in that situation .

Under your own criteria, the "great Yokozuna" Musashimaru should not have been promoted to Yokozuna in the first place.

His three basho record prior to promotion:

Hatsu 99: 8-7

Haru 99:  13-2 Yusho

Natsu 99: 13-2 Yusho

34 wins over three basho, barely qualifying for the standard for OZEKI promotion. His two Yusho were considered somewhat "easy" because all three current Yokozuna (Takanohana, Wakanohana, and Akebono) were either wrestling injured or absent. Also injured or absent were other prominent rikishi like Musoyama and Chiyotaikai himself.

Yet, as you admit, he has become a great Yokozuna.

Even Chiyonofuji, widely considered one of the greatest Yokozuna of all time, had what today would be considered a weak promotion record.

I'm not saying that Chiyo will follow the same path and become a great Yokozuna, in fact I think it's rather doubtful, heck he still has to win in Aki just to get his tsuna. I just think to say he isn't deserving when other "great Yokozuna" have been promoted with even less qualification is just not right.

BTW, I'm not saying any of this because I'm a Chiyotaikai fan. I was an Akebono fan, but of the current crop of rikishi I have yet to find a favorite, though Asashoryu is starting to grow on me.  :-P

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

So, if we attend another weak basho, this would be two "weak Yusho" in a row for Chiyotaikai and would this be worth a Yokozuna promotion ? Not really ... I would have prefered the Kyokai to wait for another third Yusho in a row in that situation ...

(SNIP)

BTW, if that happens, do you think there's a chance Chiyotaikai would change his shikona to become Chiyonofuji ?

Time and again there will be lukewarm bashos in a row. Some guys are absent, some are still recuperating, some eat chanko that doesn't suit their tastes, some step onto a broken bottle, some get hit by a meteor but invariably a winner will be found.

He might be the greatest guy sumo has seen in 472 years or not. He might win by isamiashi and fusensho for fourteen days only to secure his zensho yusho on senshuraku by the virtue of hitting the dohyo nanosecond later than his aite after both have committed a lame henka.

But he wins. And that's what counts. Why punish Chiyo for not meeting his adversaries when they are at their best? We can go speculating almost every basho on those criteria.

This thread reminds me of Wakanohana III's promotion. Honestly I didn't see the point in trying to deny his yokozuna promotion. He was an ozeki winning two consecutive bashos and got promoted. What's wrong with that? Everyone was convinced he wouldn't match the record of, say, his brother but that's exactly the difference between a yokozuna and a dai-yokozuna. Latter can't exist without the former outnumbering them.

BTW, if we are to count also play-off wins (officially of course not but we can speculate, right), Chiyo did indeed win 33 bouts in three consecutive bashos as a sekiwake before his ozeki promotion. Admittedly the 33th win came in the 46th bout but still...

If Chiyotaikai wins Aki Basho with a 10-5 after an eleven guy play-off, I'd say he be promoted. If that meant his career to end up much earlier, so be it. I'd personally much prefer appearing once in a honbasho as a yokozuna than hundred times as an ozeki. I don't know about him, though.

I think I read somewhere Kokonoe plans to keep his shikona in reserve for a rikishi closer to his build and style than for example Chiyotaikai is but I might remember wrong. Does he have a son or is my demency progressing?

[Hoshifransu 0]

Under your own criteria, the "great Yokozuna" Musashimaru should not have been promoted to Yokozuna in the first place.

There's something like that but the main difference was Maru made great performances before, as Ozeki, including two yusho more with an outstanding 15-0 Zensho Yusho ...

That's only a point of view and I don't want to criticize the Kyokai one more time (and I'm so bad at the Banzuke exercise ...) but if I were among them, I would insist on the main point to me : you've got to prove to be a good/great Ozeki before being promoted Yokozuna ...

Sorry but Chiyotaikai never proved nothing since his Ozeki promotion ...

I avoid to talk about the Konishiki non-promotion because this could be a non-stop talking item, but if Chiyo wins Yokozuna promotion with another Yusho in the same conditions than previously, I know someone in Hawaii who could be very very disappointed ...

There will be lukewarm bashos in a row. Some guys are absent, some are still recuperating

Well, that's the big problem in Sumo and in sport in general, but mainly in Sumo because of the injury problems.

All that makes me thinnk about two examples :

In tennis, when Martina Hingis has injury problems and cannot compete or when she's not top fit, I think the victory has not the same taste for her rivals ...

Or that reminds me of these old times (I realize how old I am ...) when the Russian sportsmen avoided the Olympic Games when the games were located in the USA and when the American sportsmen avoided the Olympics when these were located in Moscow ... (because of political reasons)

Well, the men who won Gold medals during these Games perhaps wouldn't have won nothing with the American or Russian sportsmen presence at this time ...

I'd personally much prefer appearing once in a honbasho as a yokozuna than hundred times as an ozeki.

Sure ! He would access another dimension. The ultimate achievement of a career !

[Zentoryu 154]

Sorry but Chiyotaikai never proved nothing since his Ozeki promotion ...

I get the feeling this is turning into the irresistable force meets the immovable object, so I'll agree to disagree with you.

[Hoshifransu 0]

I'll agree to disagree with you

That's your right.

[Chiyozakura 163]

To discuss what an Ozeki should achieve to be a good Ozeki won't lead to anything as you cannot compare the situations. Was Akebono's Yokozuna promotion justified? Before his two Yusho he never had an Ozeki basho with more than 9 wins. But he only fought in 3 basho...

I think that when Chiyotaikai first made Ozeki he had more difficult opponents than Maru had in the mid 90's. Maru only had 4 real hard opponents each basho plus Kotonishiki, young Kaio and Akinoshima when their games where on. Taikai had Taka, Ake, Maru, Dejima, Kaio and Musoyama who made it to Ozeki, strong Tochiazuma and Miyabiyama, all being at least Ozeki calibre. I think we should not hold Taikais early Ozeki record against him as he was promoted at a very young age. Let's not forget that he is younger than Kotomitsuki. His sumo has improved and he was the best rikishi last basho. If he does it again next time he deserves Yokozuna promotion. And the Kyokai probably won't say " Yes, he won two Yusho, but our other rikishi are so weak that our dominant guy does not deserve promotion...."

[Tony 16]

It's sure! Comparison between Musashimaru and Chiyotaikai is subjective ( period, injury, ...)

Chiyotaikai is a great ozeki, and simply a great rikishi. Without stats, etc..., his fighting spirit, his willing impose respect!

[Guest Kaikitsune]

Takanohana trained with Takanonami third day in a row winning 11 out of 14 bouts after which he ignored press totally and evidently decided not to speak to press before Aki basho if I understood correctly. Referred articles:

http://www.sanspo.com/morespo/sumo/fr_sumo.html

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/hochi/sports/aug/o20020829_40.htm

Hmm..Takanohana hasn't declared his participation yet after all!