Kashunowaka 300 Posted September 28, 2003 (edited) From the glossary: <blockquote><b>haridashi</b>, nowadays (since 1995) unofficial attribute which is possibly added to no lower than yaku-rikishi's rank when there are at least two rikishi above him at the same rank, his tozai rank depending on the amount of higher ranked haridashi rikishi; for instance third yokozuna (haridashi higashi yokozuna) and at the same time in banzuke a third ozeki (haridashi nishi ozeki); </blockquote> I don't quite understand the meaning of "nowadays (since 1995) unofficial attribute". I take it as haridashi being an official attribute before 1995 - what did that entail? Third and fourth ozeki are called "haridashi higashi/nishi ozeki". When there is a fifth ozeki, what is his rank called? Edited December 14, 2004 by Exil Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kintamayama 47,178 Posted September 28, 2003 Third and fourth ozeki are called "haridashi higashi/nishi ozeki". When there is a fifth ozeki, what is his rank called? Dirty hari-dashi higashi make my day? I'm laughing, I'm laughing.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted September 28, 2003 Third and fourth ozeki are called "haridashi higashi/nishi ozeki". When there is a fifth ozeki, what is his rank called? Dirty hari-dashi higashi make my day? I'm laughing, I'm laughing.. "Well done. You have a good sense of humour. I pronounce you a true SUMO fan!" (Doing a wave...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted September 28, 2003 Third and fourth ozeki are called "haridashi higashi/nishi ozeki". When there is a fifth ozeki, what is his rank called? Dirty hari-dashi higashi make my day? I'm laughing, I'm laughing.. "Well done. You have a good sense of humour. I pronounce you a true SUMO fan!" (Applauding...) (Punk rocker...) (Doing a wave...) About the haridashi: Up to 1994 (including 1994.05), some rikishi (especially third plus Ozeki or Yokozuna) were on the actual banzuke written on the side of the normal banzuke area, widening the banzuke beyond it's usual frame. This type of ranking was officially named haridashi and can be seen for example on the 1993.01 banzuke: http://www.momopark.com/e/sumoshop/images/...ucts/BZ9301.jpg From 1994.07, additional Ozeki or Yokozuna have been ranked within the border as all the others and therefore using the haridashi expression to denote them is now completely unofficial and mostly a relic from the past. Since there are actually no numbers on the banzuke, I suppose the only logical way to distinguish between one and another haridashi would be to call them first Ozeki-haridashi west, second Ozeki-haridashi west and so on, exactly as you would call them first Ozeki-west and second Ozeki-west, although they are simply called Ozeki on the banzuke. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kashunowaka 300 Posted September 28, 2003 Thanks, Stefan. (Doing a wave...) I knew I had read about this somewhere. This old post to the SML perhaps? (Punk rocker...) I notice now that the term haridashi indeed disappears from the banzuke transcriptions at banzuke.com from 1995 on. Haridashi form has also been used to distinguish a lone yokozuna (Hokutoumi in 1992, Akebono in 1994) so using the term to designate 3rd/4th rikishi within the rank was apparently not quite correct anyway. So for clarity, the commonly seen O1E, O1W, O2E, ... is the most useful idiom today, it seems. It also works fine when talking about older banzuke (when haridashi was officially used). The only remaining case in older banzuke I know of where adding a number after the rank as above doesn't work is when there were more than two maegashira on a rank (1980.07 is an example, with two M2W). Perhaps they could be called M2W1 and M2W2, but it looks weird. M2W and haridashi M2W seems better in this case, doesn't it? I think Yubiquitoyama-zeki mentioned something quite recently about this being rikishi with kosho status remaining on their rank. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted September 28, 2003 I think Yubiquitoyama-zeki mentioned something quite recently about this being rikishi with kosho status remaining on their rank. Indeed it used to be possible for banzuke makers to allocate another rikishi to a banzuke slot already held by a kosho rikishi. I think this convention was abolished sometime before mid-Eighties... (?) Nagoya Basho 1983 seems to be the last basho where it was used. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 20,223 Posted September 29, 2003 Nagoya Basho 1983 seems to be the last basho where it was used. And the first such case seems to be Nagoya 1980, so I guess the practice didn't stick for too long... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted September 29, 2003 Nagoya Basho 1983 seems to be the last basho where it was used. And the first such case seems to be Nagoya 1980, so I guess the practice didn't stick for too long... No, the first time in Makunouchi would be 1973.07 where Maruyama is ranked Haridashi after his kosho basho. That was probably an anomaly though since there are kosho rikishi between him and Tochiakagi in 1980.07 who was not ranked Haridashi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 20,223 Posted September 29, 2003 No, the first time in Makunouchi would be 1973.07 where Maruyama is ranked Haridashi after his kosho basho. Whoops, I missed that one because there's apparently no "real" M14e there, just him as "haridashi M14e", so I didn't think it was a kosho situation. Thanks for the heads-up. (Releasing bad air...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
