Today's Victory!

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

Maybe we should have some sort of bot on this forum that erases every message with the word "henka" in it (In a state of confusion...) Just kidding, but it does seem to stir emotions and arguments like no other topic... (Sign of disapproval)

[Iwagakki 0]

Instead of arguing the semantics of something that will never, ever have anything to do with you personally...not to mention getting personal and offensive about it, why don't you get some semblance of self control, perspective and respect for others, and get on with your life?

Assuming you're referring to me.

Well, no. Koto, I wasn't referring to you at all. I was referring to a comment by someone else altogether, which ended with something like "you stupid little boy."

I really didn't mean to come off sounding like I was down on everyone about the conversation, or their opinions. I personally find most of you to be very insightful, and thoughtful in your opinions. And I value the differing perspectives because they generally add to the enjoyment of Sumo. Especially since I'm the only sumo fan within about 500miles, I think. This forum is my lifeline to sumo. And like everyone else here, I really like sumo, and get pretty intent on it sometimes.

However, those very few remarks like "...you stupid little boy," and a couple others, really don't need to be there. I mean, hey, we're sumo fans, not soccer hooligans. (Enjoying a beer...)

Anyway, Maybe my choice of words was a little bit agressive, so I'm sorry about that.

I really didn't mean infer that anyone's opinion was worthless unless they were directly involved. i.e. "when you have someone pull a henka on you...." I was just trying (unsuccessfully) to point out that even if we take sumo seriously, there ought to be some perspective, and even if there isn't, it doesn't mean it's ok to start swearing and calling people names. (Unless your Chiyotaikai, and the Yokozuna did it to you, and even then, only if you think it, and don't say it out loud...haha, provokingly)

I didn't think Jes was so rude about the "silly" remark, by the way.

Fukunoyama made a good point. There are some things that deserve serious consideration. Slavery, Genocide, poverty, and a thousand other social problems in this world that go unmentioned every day. Sumo ultimately, is just a sport, albeit one that I find very enjoyable. And sumo is, for me, an escape, or distraction, at least, from all the stuff that bothers me about the world. it kind of sucks when someones temper, or intolerance enters into it. I mean, it's really disturbing when someone on the board starts saying things like "must be the stupidest thing ever" or "so i dont think i stupid you little stupid boy " just because they don't approve of a persons choice in Rikishi to cheer for. Especially since it's JUST A SPORT.

So ultimately, I was just trying to agree with Jes and Onna, "can't we all just get along." sorry if it came out so ornery, but cut me some slack, It was like 3am.

p.s.

HAHAHA

I got you all off the argument about Henka, again.....for now (In a state of confusion...)

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Well, no. Koto, I wasn't referring to you at all.

(...)

I mean, hey, we're sumo fans, not soccer hooligans.

(...)

Sumo ultimately, is just a sport, albeit one that I find very enjoyable.

(...)

HAHAHA

I got you all off the argument about Henka, again.....for now (In a state of confusion...)

Very well, the reference to semantics made me think it was directed at me.

---

Soccer hooligans have preciously little to do with the beautiful sport whose reputation these idiots have spoiled in some parts of the world. No one who truly loves football wants to have his/her name associated with hooliganism. The very mention of them tends to irritate true fans, many of which populate this forum as well.

Combining words football (or whatever it is called abroad) and hooligans is a generalization that drives me mad. I know people not used to live in the football immersed cultures use that pair of words often lightly without too ill attentions, even attempting to be humourous. Still, be warned that football fans hate to be associated with those imbeciles that through generalizations stereotypically represent the whole sport to many people in North America and wherever football is not the most popular sport.

---

Here we differ most, I believe. To me sumo is (or at least could be thought to be) more than just a sport. I've often been called by people who know me personally as someone born into a wrong century. Perhaps it's related to my (self-diagnosed) neurological condition.

I'm enamoured to absolutes. There is preciously little left to speculate in sumo. Either a man goes down first or not. No need to speculate about the legality of his front tyres, jumping suit or whatever. I find this downright titillating. No shades of grey, just black and white; kuroboshi & shiroboshi.

Moreover, I'm not aware of any such subculture as the one that exists in ozumo. Surely, say, NHL players live somewhat insulated with their teams but nothing like the bond between a rikishi and his heya and shisho exists in any other sport (I think). No rikishi can walk the streets unrecognized. People might not know the shikona of a jonidan walking by but he is known to be a sumotori. He lives day and night with his heyamates; all training rigorously to see their names higher up the banzuke. He is expected to reflect the most admirable traits of a Japanese man.

There are no athletes like them. So immersed in their sport, so dedicated to it. This dedication I admire and envy; possibly because my own life has very little to be dedicated to, much as I would want.

Perhaps I'm just na

[Iwagakki 0]

hmm. maybe this discussion should continue some where else....

Anyway. I agree that sumo is something more than a sport. In it's essence, it is more a religious ceremony than anything.

About soccer hooligans---

Football hooligans are a fact, not a generalization. Just because 90 percent of the football fans in the world aren't hooligans, doesn't mean they don't exist. And it doesn't mean that it's inappropriate to say that they exist either. There is a difference between saying "all football fans are Hooligans" and "Football hooligans exist."

It reminds me of something that my mother used to always say. "If you don't want people to call you a 'drunken Indian,' then don't be a drunken indian." (I'm an American Indian, btw, and I know a whole lot about "generalizations."

And don't get me started on "ideal" anything, whether it be Japanese men, or anything else.

There is no "set in stone" ideal about such traits, except in formal, ritualized situations, for anyone, anywhere, and to say there is, denotes a kind of generalization in itself. People in Japan are just as different and diverse as anywhere else. To say that sumo is the definitive example of "traits" of any kind is sort of inappropriate. (I used that word, inappropriate, because I couldn't think of a better word, but it doesn't quite convey the right meaning.)

To say that Sumo represents the ideal male in Japan, is something like saying a Lutheran Minister(Pastor, Reverend???) represents the "Ideal male" in Finland. Or that someone from Helsinki is pretty much the same as someone in Turku or Tampere. In theory, maybe, superficially true. But in practice? In practice, there is much too much diversity to make a statement like that. Japan is a complex place, that can't be defined by something as limited as sumo. Remember, sumo is one of the last remaining vestiges of Shogunal Japan, aside from the tea ceremony, and traditional archery, and was a part of the upper warrior, "Samurai" class and the "priestly" class, by imposition mostly, on the latter. It had little to bear upon the Farmer, or Merchant classes, and to some degree, still doesn't.

Many people I have met in Japan think of sumo in a way that is maybe similar to the way regular everyday Britons think of polo. Not exactly a part of their personal lineage, and even sort of something that belongs to the "upper class" (in a not so nice way.)

Granted sumo is pretty popular nowadays, but for some, it still carries the scent of inecapable class oppression.

Not to mention, that Japan, like anywhere else on the planet, has social issues, some (but certainly not all) of which have to do with "Ideal Male Attributes."

Anyway, Japan is a modern country, dealing with modern issues, and sumo is an ancient sport, dealing with ancient concerns, and sometimes the two don't always intersect neatly, so it's a tough call to say that one is representative of the other.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Football hooligans are a fact, not a generalization. Just because 90 percent of the football fans in the world aren't hooligans, doesn't mean they don't exist. And it doesn't mean that it's inappropriate to say that they exist either. There is a difference between saying "all football fans are Hooligans" and "Football hooligans exist."

(...)

And don't get me started on "ideal" anything, whether it be Japanese men, or anything else. (...) To say that sumo is the definitive example of "traits" of any kind is sort of inappropriate. (...) To say that Sumo represents the ideal male in Japan, is something like saying a Lutheran Minister(Pastor, Reverend???) represents the "Ideal male" in Finland. Or that someone from Helsinki is pretty much the same as someone in Turku or Tampere. (...) Not to mention, that Japan, like anywhere else on the planet, has social issues, some (but certainly not all) of which have to do with "Ideal Male Attributes."

Football hooligans do exist, but I'd say 99+ % of people going to see matches just want to see good football with their own team preferably winning. The idiots who want to raise hell abuse the popularity of football. If there were tens of thousands of spectators in say, basketball matches, they'd probably maul policemen and supporters of the other teams there. Watching the Italian riot yesterday was once again depressing. Where do those idiots stem from?!?!? Yet in the great majority of matches there are no hooliganism to speak of. The sport itself does not generate violence around it. It's just a game. A beautiful and intriguing game but just a game.

The trigger for my irritation regarding football hooliganism is the fact that it seems to be the only thing people not following the sport itself, seem to know about football. They are most likely aware that hooligans form a small minority among people going to matches, yet very often seem to bring up the existence of hooliganism even if football wasn't discussed about in the first place. This is what irritates me. Discussion about hooliganism starts a discussion about the whole subject of football. The tail wags the dog. But enough...

---

I've understood there are traits valued among the rikishi. Stoicism, perseverance, etc. Traditional samurai values, perhaps. I've also understood those are traits traditionally considered desirable for any Japanese male, be their social status whatever.

Curiously enough, Finland (which you took as an example) resembles in many ways Japan. At least in this respect. Finnish man is also expected to suppress publicly his feelings and to persevere in his efforts, sometimes to the point of unreasonableness. I fail often miserably but many succeed.

OK, so a sumotori does not represent an imaginary, ideal Japanese man as I have thought and read about. Who does? Does anyone? A priest certainly doesn't represent an ideal Finnish male in my mind, almost the contrary. I doubt many would consider a priest (or someone with a certain profession) as some sort of ideal in Finland. This country is seriously devoid of idealism, anyway. People around Finland are almost exactly the same as we are a very homogenous society.

Then again, aren't people everywhere mostly the same? Aren't we talking about slight variations instead of real differences? Aren't there traits that globally are thought to be desirable to a man? Or a woman, for that matter?

Surely there are social issues in Japan but I fail to understand how any of those could be stemmed from the ideals regarding the Japanese man except if you mean that there are problems like domestic violence etc. which might have its roots in men's inability to follow the ideals they're supposed to strive for and the resulting frustration thereof? Even then I wouldn't say the ideals themselves are to blame. Even without them (and probably to a greater extent) all this effrontery (wife beating, alcoholism, etc.) would manifest itself.

[Manekineko 200]

Reading this discussion, I have a distinct feeling that Iwagakki-zeki and Kotoseiya-zeki don't really understand what the other one is trying to say - they simply use the same words to express different ideas, which can often lead to heated discussions without much progress in them. Still, this level of discussion is a huge leap forward to some of the poking and needling which started this lengthy discussion in the first place. And they fill quite nicely the dreaded Between Basho Blues... :-)

[Jesinofuji 11]

Between Basho Blues

:-)

First time I've heard this one. Senshuraku is always exciting, btu when it ends on the last day, its like a lonely feeling passes over the world. The next basho is what 7 weeks away. All the excitment on hold for a long long 7 weeks. (Applauding...)

But this break is going to be a lot easier than last break as Asa has the cup this time. And what an exciting Basho Kyushu will be. So many things to watch for in Kyushu! Can Kaio escape Kadoban, how about Muso? Can Kokkai become the first European in Makuuchi? Wakanosato, Oozeki? Will Takamisakari finally be able to kachikoshi from sanyaku? How about Iwakiyama, nobody expects him to keep sanyaku, will he shock everyone? Will an closer to 100% than has been in a long time Kotomitsuki be able to start his Oozeki run? M4 was a little rough for the rapidly advancing Asasekiryu, will he be able to rebound, by how much? Can Roho make it to Juryo? :-) I could go on forever, but Kyushu is going to be a very very exciting basho...

Lets hope Asa can get the Zensho this time.

[Fujisan 533]

I personally love a well executed henka,sorry but I do.

Epecially Takanohana vs chiyotaikai in kyushu last year,the look on Taikais face was priceless-He asks to be henk'd though.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

I have a distinct feeling that Iwagakki-zeki and Kotoseiya-zeki don't really understand what the other one is trying to say - they simply use the same words to express different ideas, which can often lead to heated discussions without much progress in them.

I'm operating at the very edge of my English. That could be an additional reason as well.

[Asashosakari 20,215]

Can Roho make it to Juryo?  ;-)

If my crystal ball isn't too far off, Roho should be at ms6 or ms7 in Kyushu...probably a little bit too low to make it even with a 6-1, except with some serious luck of the banzuke. Then again, maybe he'll have a breakout basho and go undefeated now that he has acclimated to upper Makushita a bit. :-P

Edited September 23, 2003 by Asashosakari

[Onnagumo 4]

I personally love a well executed henka,sorry but I do.

Epecially Takanohana vs chiyotaikai in kyushu last year

Well, wouldn't this forum be booooooring if we all had the same opinion (Blinking...)

To be honest, I always hate to see one of my favorites use henka. Watching that very match you just named, made me feel really sad. It was then that I started to think: if Taka needs a henka to win, then maybe the end is near for him...... :'-(

And I certainly won't ever forget this one http://www.banzuke.com/sumomovies/nagoya2001/130701mov.html

(Asashoryu-Kotonowaka) Sure, I guess it was a smart move, I bet Asa didn't expect that, and most of you know that I'm no Asashoryu fan, but nevertheless I felt so very disappointed (Sign of disapproval) that Kotonowaka almost lost a fan that day.

Now, after 2 years, I do see the funny side of it (In a state of confusion...) but when it had just happened, ARGH! (Going kyujo...)

[Chinonofuji 35]

But this break is going to be a lot easier than last break as Asa has the cup this time. And what an exciting Basho Kyushu will be. So many things to watch for in Kyushu! Can Kaio escape Kadoban, how about Muso? Can Kokkai become the first European in Makuuchi? Wakanosato, Oozeki? Will Takamisakari finally be able to kachikoshi from sanyaku? How about Iwakiyama, nobody expects him to keep sanyaku, will he shock everyone? Will an closer to 100% than has been in a long time Kotomitsuki be able to start his Oozeki run? M4 was a little rough for the rapidly advancing Asasekiryu, will he be able to rebound, by how much? Can Roho make it to Juryo?  I could go on forever, but Kyushu is going to be a very very exciting basho...

And maybe this will never come to pass, but I still have hope that Musashimaru will heal up enough to be somewhat like his old self, and take on Asashoryu the Yokozuna. Sumo needs Yokozuna matchups, and I would love to see 3 or 4 of these bouts. What bashos those would be! I really do not know who would win. Also, if Asashoryu did win 50% or more of those head to head Yokozuna bouts, I think it would give him much more legitimacy in the eyes of fans who think he has not had to *really* work for his 4 basho. He does so well against the rank and file, but he stalls a little against the Ozeki, and we just don't know how he would have done against Takanohana, Moose, Akebono. Who will take their place and give Asashoryu a run for his money??? :-P

Also, the keiko reports really help with the between basho blues, as do the translations of the daily sumo news. Thank you in advance to all who can help with these updates!!!! (Going kyujo...) :-/ (In a state of confusion...) (Blinking...) (Yucky...)