HenryK

I'm somewhat surprised that this hasn't been commented on, but I really think it should, since this statistic is completely useless and says nothing in its current form. Any year where there have been a lack of "soon-to-be-Yokozuna"-Ozekis will have lower average numbers since no one getting really strong numbers will be there. Comparing that to average Sekiwake-numbers doesn't say much either since such numbers inevitably includes Ozeki-promotion-streaks, which will make them higher than what can normally be expected from a typical Sekiwake. In other words, it is comparing apples and oranges. It will also fluctuate quite wildly depending on what type of Ozeki happens to be present a particular year or for that matter, whether an Ozeki has decided to step out from tournaments or not when being injured/in bad shape. I' a bit at loss what you are expecting from the statistic. It says that 2008 was a poor year in terms of Ozeki performances, no more no less. For the reasons you cite, and others. In other words, this: is exactly the point.

Quite some "techinque" that was. Telling of the effectiveness of sheer power when paired with a cool mind.

Thank you. Your daily reports are always the icing on the cake. (Sign of approval...)

One could see the pressure all over Asahsoryu's face. But quite an impressive deliviery, how he fired himself up, stopped an advancing Kisenosato in stride, and marched the bigger man out of the ring. Good showing, I really hope he can keep this up. Judging from the audience's reaction, this guy still captures the specatators' imagination like noone except maybe old Kaio (who did well against Miyabiyama). The Hakuho fight thereafter was an anticlimax.

Well, Miyaibyama isn't the youngest fella any longer. I think he can still make it to sanyaku and even have a few KK there. But Ozeki? That's a tall order. I agree on Dejima, he seems to be on the downward slope. I see clear Ozeki potential in Baruto, however, and am curious in how he will handle himself in his third basho as Sekiwake.

Go, Asashoryu!

Oddly enough, I was thinking how un-haggard he looked during practice. Here's what I saw in under 6 minutes. On a separate note, Isegahama Oyakata was pretty pissed off about how noisy the camera shutters were and told us off several times, finally banning cameras well into the Asashoryu-Harumafuji session. Fair comment if it's distracting, but the way he said it seemed as though he's never had a press pit in his heya. Brilliant video. Thank you.

Anywhere this rating system could stil be found? If there is one single sumo statistic that I'm thirsting to see it's this one...

Masuiyama.

Nice idea. Seems we are not on a too different page with this one.

(I am not worthy...) Dunno how you figure Wakanosato would have been a fine ozeki. He has never won more than 11 at any rank in makuuchi. 7 double-digit bashos at sanyaku looks pretty respectable to me. That's more than some real Ozeki have produced, even though they benefited from rank protection.

Kotonishiki and Wakansato would have made for fine Ozeki though.

Drats, that's correct... Unfortunately, my statistics knowledge is too limited to know how I should accommodate for that. Any idea? Or do you know how robust multiple regression is with respect to some violations? One standard procedure is to include squared values of the independent variable, thus y = a1*X1 + a2*(X1^2) +... If a2 is insignificant, you can drop the square again (=a linear appromiation is appropriate). May I ask whether either you or Doitsu have the strenght ratings published somewhere? I'd be very interested in how they evolve basho per basho. For example, where Baruto is currently compared to the Ozeki.

Here is a stat on my own -- the average number of Ozeki wins per basho per year. Only completed bashos were counted. In 2008, the Ozeki won on average 8.8 fights per basho (Kotooshu 9.6, Kotomitsuki 9.2, Kaio 8.4, Chiyotaikai 8.0). This is significantly below the long-time average for Ozeki (9.9 for 1958-2008) and actually closer to the long-term average for Sekiwake (8.2). It is also the lowest Ozeki-score since 1980 (a special year, when the only two active Ozeki, Takanohana and Masuiyama, went intai). Typically, when the Ozeki average comes down close to 9 or lower one or more Ozeki went intai, but not in 2008.

Thanks, very interesting and suggesting that my ad-hoc rule may overdo it a little. To reply to a specific point raised by Shomisuu though (thanks for the interesting link as well), both Mienoumi and Tamanoshima would have made it to Yokozuna also under the one-10-in-6 rule (Mienoumi possibly one basho later than he did).

Certainly not for me. One of the reasons for me to like sumo is its unique ranking system. The only other sport that I know that assigns some ranks that last through an entire career, is chess, but it fails to amaze me in other respects. (Showing respect...) For me neither. The ranking system is ingenious and a significant part of its ozumo's attraction. So ingenious in fact that I have tried to apply it (with some modifications) to tennis -- see my signature. What is interesting though is to complement the banzuke ranking system with other informal ranking systems, such as Doitsuyama's strenght ratings.

Well, if you want to see more movement into and OUT of Ozeki rank, that suggests at least more former Ozeki as you probably don't want young rikishi like Kotooshu to retire immediately after their demotion back to Sekiwake in case there are stricter demotion rules for their rank... Of course there would be a few more former Ozeki, but a few more isn't "tons". As for Kotooshu, I wouldn't have argued against a demotion to Sekiwake at end-07. Many thought he wasn't holding up Ozeki honor any longer with his lacklustre performances. More generally, wouldn't it be better if a rikishi who doesn't fight at Ozeki level an longer would be a former Ozeki, rather than an active one? True. And, as Asosahkari has pointed out in a different post, we are talking about marginal changes here anyway, also on the promotion side. This said, it seems worthwhile to me considering whether one shouldn't demand a 10 from an Ozeki every now and then, and -- by implictation -- whether Ozeki who can't do better than 8 or 9 wins any longer shouldn't be removed from that rank.

Sign me on to this. At least there should be some sort of system that would allow rikishi to heal an injury properly without losing all their career achievements as a result. At the same time, one could make it a bit harder for Ozeki to scrape through with series of 8-7s, 9-6s and 3-8-4s. Somewhere else I suggested that an Ozeki could be requested to put in at least one double-digt basho every calendar year.

Well, I think you should make clear that we are talking only about 2 (of 5 active) Ozeki, Kaio and Chiyotaikai. Kotooshu only was Kadoban twice in 19 basho and Kotomitsuki not once. So it might indeed be just a historical "coincidence" that there were no "regular" Ozeki demotions that long with two extraordinary enduring Ozeki. And yes I think this is how it should be: Ozeki keeping their rank as long as possible (with good performances of course, not the 2005/06 Kaio or the 2007 Kotooshu) and rather retiring than being demoted once their time has come! I for my part wouldn't mind to see a bit more movement into and out of Ozeki rank, but tastes differ. it devalues the rank if there is significant movement into the rank. making tons of rikishi "former ozeki", it wouldnt be special to be an ozeki or former ozeki One could argue as well (or better) that it devalues the rank when active Ozeki are never competitive for yushos. And of course noone is suggesting "tons of former Ozeki".

Let me say ahead that I also think there is no need to change rules. The following is therefore pure hypothetical speculation and should be discussed as this. Now 10 wins is often considered a benchmark for upholding "Ozeki honor". Say one would request an Ozeki to put in a 10 every 4 or 5 tournaments. Make this 6: at least one 10-5 basho per calendar year. An Ozeki who fails at this for a full calendar year enters Hatsu of the next calendar year as Sekiwake. I haven't checked the implications this would have had in history. But I would think it should trigger the occasional Ozeki-demotion for rikishi who aren't fully up to the rank's standards any longer (or for a temporary period). If this would yield a too low equilibrium number of Ozeki (which I doubt), one could interpret the promotion criteria to ozeki a bit less strictly (say, 32 could do in some circumstances). Isn't there a chance this could be interesting?

Well, I think you should make clear that we are talking only about 2 (of 5 active) Ozeki, Kaio and Chiyotaikai. Kotooshu only was Kadoban twice in 19 basho and Kotomitsuki not once. So it might indeed be just a historical "coincidence" that there were no "regular" Ozeki demotions that long with two extraordinary enduring Ozeki. And yes I think this is how it should be: Ozeki keeping their rank as long as possible (with good performances of course, not the 2005/06 Kaio or the 2007 Kotooshu) and rather retiring than being demoted once their time has come! I for my part wouldn't mind to see a bit more movement into and out of Ozeki rank, but tastes differ.

Ozeki demotions -- an Ozeki falling back to Sekiwake -- have always been rare. However, in recent years Ozeki got only demoted when they went fusen: the last 4 Ozeki demotions (Dejima, Miyabiyama, and Tochiazuma twice) where of that kind. An Ozeki missing KK twice and hence continuing as a Sekiwake hasn't happened since 2000 (when this occured twice, with Takanonami and Musoyama). Now Ozeki is of course a protected rank, but with the current crop of Ozeki the rank has become almost like Yokozuna -- a rank for life. Somehow the current Ozeki always edge out a KK at the right time, and if they can't the Ozeki would retire rather than accepting demotion. Is this how it should be? This said, there have been other long periods without a "regular" Ozeki demotion, notably 1961-74 and 1977-93. Here is a list of Ozeki-Sekiwake demotions since 1957

Actually, same here. Happy to let the picture business rest.

What preconceptions? Anyway truly competitive guys endure hardships and humiliations to motivate themselves and try harder. If you can't stand being used as a wet mop, either you get yourself so strong that you won't suffer such a humiliation or go home crying the world is not a fair place. Well I don't buy the "humiliation is good for motivation" part. And while the world isn't fair, I still prefer environments in which people do not humiliate one another.

Yours or theirs? Well, mine obviously.