Chisaiyama

I too, as is all too often the case, missed the opening bell! Anyway my guesstimate is: Day 3: K1E Baruto

I am sorry and my personal apology. This sort of "I'm sorry but that was disussed here" reply is so common on this forum. Not necessesarily by you but by many, Asashosakari in particular comes to mind. It just happens to be a pet peeve of mine. While I agree in principle that little is (sometimes) gained by rehashing that which has already been hashed sometimes a different discussion is just what's called for. All too often when one gets referred to an already existing thread one reads opinions and thoughts that were germane at the time but (since the thread has usually gone dormant) haven't been updated recently. Look at the activity that my remark generated. I can almost guarantee you that had I not made that comment that shibata-gumi would have dutifully gone off and read the other thread and maybe have been satisfied by what they read and maybe not but probably not have gotten any of the interesting information and opinion that developed in this thread without substantially repeating what was said in that other thread! Instead, I interjected my comment, that old devil Asashosakari, who can rarely resist a dig in my direction, replied and voila the discussion flourished. Again I do apologize for the snark at you and re-iterate that it was aimed at the type of remark and not at you personally. Also the "heavy weights" remark was just for effect and wasn't truly meant to be derogatory. I am happy to be a member of a forum which features such "heavy weights" as yourself, Moti, Asashosakari, Jejima et. al. I have learned much from you all and contributed what little I have to contribute along the way. I have often found that my work as an "agent provacateur" is often invaluable to get a discussion going or channel it into a new direction from time to time. Best Regards Chisaiyama

No apologies needed, the heavy weights in this forum just hate to repeat a thread but will repeat themselves till the cows come home in any given thread!

1 - A 2 - B 3 - A 4 - A 5 - B 6 - B 7 - A 8 - A 9 - A 10 - B 11 - B 12 - A 13 - A 14 - A 15 - A 16 - A 17 - B 18 - A 19 - B 20 - A 21 - A

Indeed, with an average of 6-7 flags everyday that means even with a 6-9 record he can expect to take home 36-42 which is almost always enough to keep him in the top 10.

And who would that be if not the plethora of low-ranked Japanese rikishi? (In a state of confusion...) Unfortunately that would be the non-sekitori, low-ranked Japanese rikishi thus not the current crop of Yokozuna wannabees. Therefore the "not in the near future" statement.

In the on-going discussion of the current state of Ozeki, OBSC, quantity vs quality, logjam/no logjam et. al., it has been stated, and rightly so that Yokozuna are really "super-ozeki". It is that status which causes one of them to act as Yokozuna-Ozeki in the event that there are fewer than 2 "regular" Ozekis on the banzuke. Also prior to I believe 1909 when the Yokozuna rank was actually established, Yokozunas were simply Ozekis who were "licensed" to perform the special dohyo-iri wearing the tsuna. My question is what was the promotion/demotion criteria for Ozeki in those pre-official-rank days? Were Ozekis ozekis-for-life as Yokozunas are now or could they in fact be demoted?

It ain't necessarily so. As Ian Malcom said in Jurassic Park "Life finds a way". In the mid 1970's there was a situation much like today only without the dominating Yokozuna. Taiho had recently retired and the ramaining Yokozuna, Kitanofuji, while no Taiho was a powerful Yokozuna in his own right. Beneath him was a cadre of aging, complacent Ozeki with literally no ambition to move forward. As Kitanofuji reached the limits of his ability and was struggling to continue one of the aging Ozekis, Kotozakura, found a resurgence of strength, ability or just plain incentive and won two Yusho and was made Yokozuna. This took a lot of pressure off of Kitanofuji and allowed 2 up and coming rikishi, Wajima and Takanohana I, to move up to Ozeki and Wajima on up to Yokozuna, and Sumo continued. I believe that if Asashoryu had not come along at all or even if he just hadn't developed as quickly as he did, that with the departure of Akebono and with Takanohana II's knee injury one of the three Ozeki you mentioned, possibly two would have made Yokozuna (my guess: Tochiazuma & Kaio). They would not have lasted like Asa has, but they would have filled that gap and in turn would have provided a gap that would have possibly allowed some different faces develop into Ozekis.

Interesting statement from one who has been in Ozumo this long now. Obviously there are not 105 "schools" there are only around 54 or 55, I've lost the exact count. And who is the Maguchi he refers to? I did not find that listed as a given or family name for moto-Kotonowaka in Doitsuyama's DB, although since he is 55 that is who he is speaking of. And in any case Kotooshu is only 26, surely he can expect to be active, barring major injury for at least another 7-8 years in that time any number of Kabu are going to become available for rent or purchase.

Despite the fact you'll likely declare me to be crazy, I for one think Asa is going to yusho in Aki. Not unless he get's himself into a lot better shape than he was in Nagoya. Mainoumi nailed it before the basho started, Asa was "podgy" and his lack of proper keiko showed as well. He is not young and dominant enough to go into a basho and knock everyone out of his way like he did in '04 & '05 anymore. If he wants to yusho in Aki or any other hon-basho again he is going to have to start taking keiko more seriously.

Eh? Why isn't he trying to beat it? Damn good question, he's only lost 3 so far this year and there are only 2 basho left. If he lost 1 in each of them he would have 85 wins for the year and beat the record. Should he have a zensho Yusho in one or both of them he could create an almost unbeatable record of 86 or 87 wins! He should not be saying he wants to try and tie it he should be aiming higher. But of course that is the difference in hinkaku between Hakuho and Asashoryu, privately I'm sure he intends to go all out to beat the record but publicly he is more self-effacing.

Otokonoyama: Absolutely priceless! And a great track as well!

You are going from the sublime to the ridiculous! No, they cannot , as Morikawa is obviously not an Ozeki, and while they might be able to bend the rules on the 2 Yusho requirement, since technically it is 2 back to back Yusho or equivalent, the requirement still exists that to be promoted to Yokozuna you must be an Ozeki . And of course there are the concommittant rules for getting promoted to that rank which requires that the run up to Ozeki promotion begin from Sanyaku! Do not be so naive as to believe that the Rijikai can just totally overturn all of their traditions. Believe me if it were that easy they would have created a Japanese Yokozuna by now and that hasn't happend and won't for probably at least another 1 1/2 - 2 years and that's if Kisenosato, Goeido or Tochiozan can get their individual or collective acts together by then.

It's almost as if he is tired of Ozumo, wants to get on with his life, but doesn't want to be seen as a quitter, so he's trying to goad the NSK into doing the deed for him by asking him to retire. He's was and still is a heck of an athlete but a very strange man to try and understand!

Actually there appears to an unwritten "rule", "guideline", "restriction", call it what you will, that there cannot be 6 Ozekis on the banzuke at once. I re-iterate it is, apparently unwritten, as I can not find any indication that such a "rule" exists but if you will look throughout the history of Ozumo you will not find a time when there were 6 Ozeki. The closest was 1986 when Chiyonofuji was then the lone Yokozuna and there were 5 Ozeki. Between March - July, Sekiwake Hoshi put up Ozeki promotion worthy numbers including a Yusho. Unfortunately during the same period none of the 5 Ozeki managed to win ANY tounaments much less 2 consecutive, although apparently that was not necessarily the rule then. I say this because what they did was to promote the Ozeki Kitao to Yokozuna, where he took the shikona Futahaugro, becoming the only modern Yokozuna to be promoted without winning a single Yusho. Hoshi then became Ozeki changing his shikona to Hokutoumi who later went on to become Yokozuna also. But you see there is a defacto logjam because they won't promote 6 Ozeki at once and now they have the 2 Yusho + hinkaku requirement for Yokozuna which came about in part because of what proved to be the untimely promotion of Futahaguro as he went on to never win a Yusho and because of bad behavior had to be asked to retire.

Now! (Neener, neener...) Day 14 Standings Final Standings Next time I'll have more spare time again. Hopefully. I understand that whole spare time thing and I'm retired! Thanks, this was my first time playing and I found as I suspected from my other Sumo Games endeavours that I would have a good shot at picking the less successful rikishi. I am looking forward to my 2nd basho in Aki.

Anyone know when the Day 14 & Day 15 results will be posted?

FWIW, I believe the ineveitable entropy that is finally catching up with Asashoryu, along with the hopefully incipient retirement of Kaio after he sets his 98th basho record will get the upper rank logjam cleared up. It was Asashoryu's incredible dominance of the sumo world that has ultimately been responsible for the so called OBSC. In a "normal" situation you do not have this kind of Yokozuna dominance. Even during the Chiyonofuji years he did not dominate to the point where an Ozeki logjam could form. As Asa weakens and the younger Ozeki start smelling blood and they start making their moves as Harumafuji did in May and Osh did this basho and last May. We will see one Yok on his way out within I believe a year and possibly another gaijin Yok to replace him further culling the current Ozeki crowd allowing the more normal promotion/retirement/demotion cycles to get going again. At the end of Taiho's reign there was a mini OBSC which was ultimately broken when, as Kitanofuji aged and no one else appeared to take the slack, the aging Kotozakura managed to break out of the doldrums and win back-to-back Yusho and get promoted to Yokozuna. This took some of the slack off of Kitanofuji and opened the door for first Wajima and then Takanohana the elder to make Ozeki and then Wajima went on to make Yokozuna and the cycles were repaired. We haven't seen another OBSC situation until Asa's performance so overshadowed all the other rikishi, both foreign and domestic that the ultimate promotion was denied them until Hakuho came along. Still that possibly would not have been enough to open things up if Asa hadn't started self-destructing with the Soccer-gate scandal and his apparent mental meltdown that followed. With the subsequent suspension and concurrent lack of training and keeping in shape and continued mental morass he began the deterioration that has led to what appears to be the beginning of the end of an impressive career. Now at last maybe things can get back to "normal". Just my 2

I was thinking he would be a Komusubi next time although he did beat Kotoshogiku today.... (Showing respect...) FWIW, I believe you're right. 14-1 or 13-2 from a M3 might trump 8-7 from Komosubi but I can't see an 11-4 from a M3 leap frogging an 8-7 Komosubi to Sekiwake. Although I have to agree with the earlier poster he probably should be sekiwake west I just don't think he will be. I'm sorry but I believe an Ozeki run must start from Sanyaku not Maegashira so it would have to wait until Kyushu at least (if he is truly successful from the M2 or M3 spot he finds himself in in Aki, that is).

Wrong forum. I sent an email one week ago there : email@sumotalk.com No answer yet. That's why I posted here That explains it, I have never gotten a reply to anything I ever sent to that e-mail address. Mike is the administrator, I believe, of the game so try his mailbox which is here.

Not too big of a chance actually as he has only beaten Taikai once when he (Kakuryu) had a losing record. And that was a tournament in which both he and Taikai had losing records and in fact both ended up 5-10 so the match meant nothing to either of them. In all their other meetings if Kakuryu had a losing record and Taikai was needy he got the win, so Senshuraku should be no exception. IMHOOC

Day 15: Aminishiki

I'll start the ball rolling with: Day 14: Baruto

M11E Yamamotoyama has withdrawn on Day 11 according to the NSK English site, where they don't give any reasons. Could be all the belly flopping he had to do on days 9 & 10. Especially since he was near exhaustion after the Day 9 Torinaoshi.

I'm willing to start the ball rolling. Since they seem determined to use up the Sanyaku before getting to the big Estonian, I say: Day 13: Kakuryu