Chisaiyama

Thank you all for the information and the link to the article. It will be a little sad to see him disappear from the Ozumo world but his legacy will remain. I am sure also that he can hang around much like the late Sadogatake did for Kotonowaka, to aid Ushiomaru in his early days as shisho.

He may be elderly and ailing but this shows that his mind is still keen and sharp as ever. I can only hope that Asashoryu reads this and takes it entirely to heart. I'm afraid that Taiho might just have been wrong with that very last sentence. I truly must wonder if Asashoryu actually realizes it at all. I'm just afraid that it is all a game to him. I hope I'm wrong and I hope he can prevail as Ozumo would be really dull without him.

Azumazeki oyakata turns 65 in June of this year and will be forced to retire. Has there been any word (rumor or otherwise) regarding who he will pass the heya on to? He only has 2 sekitori, Ushiomaru and Takamisakari. While Robocop is never going to see sanyaku again he still should be able to remain competitive for several more years and of course he is currently unmarried and while I don't know if it is a "requirement" for a Shisho to have an okamisan I haven't hear of any that don't. Ushiomaru OTOH is desperately fighing to remain in Juryo and would probably be more than happy to intai and take over the heya but I have to wonder if Azumazeki would be content with this mediocre rikishi as his successor. Is it likely that he would simply fold it and pass his rikishi onto some other heya rather that let either of these two become Shisho? I am interested in any thoughts on this one. It would seem a shame to let a heya that produced a fine Yokozuna such as Akebono to just go away.

Day 3 - Harumafuji

To add my 2 cents/yen/rupee/shekels/etc. to the mix. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, Fourth Edition Online: TRANSITIVE VERB: en

Day 1 - Asashoryu Day 2 - Chiyotaikai

J4 Gagamaru

Wow still another game I haven't heard of before that I can't wait to try! I started out a few years ago with just FS over at SumoTalk and now this makes about a dozen (and I realize that makes me a piker compared to some others). Anyway here is my first attempt at the 21 game. 1. A 2. A 3. A 4. A 5. A 6. A 7. A 8. B 9. B 10. B 11. A 12. A 13. A 14. B 15. A 16. B 17. B 18. A 19. A 20. B 21. A

A particularly good site for information on Toshiyori is to be found here: Oyakata Gallery. You will find a complete listing of current Oyakata, their positions within the Kyokai, salaries etc. The first three sections are particularly helpful in answering these questions.

There is a thread titled, typcially for Sumo Talk Discussion Board, "Konishiki is One Fat Mother" that includes some more recent pictures. Including some at Musashimaru's wedding and with Moose on the golf course that are fairly recent. In the most recent ones he appears quite a bit smaller than before the surgery but he still has a ways to go to make it to the cover of GQ! Edit: If you can just ignore the commentary or at least consider the source, the pictures make it worth a quick perusal.

After a great deal of deliberation, including extreme sumodb research and consideration of critiques and commentary posted here, I have revised my picks for Hatsu '09 as follows: YE Hakuho - YW Asashoryu OE1 Kotomitsuki - O1W Chiyotaikai OE2 Kotooshu - O2W Kaio OE3 Harumafuji SE Baruto - SW Aminishiki KE Kisenosato - KW Toyonoshima ME1 Kotoshogiku - MW1 Kyokutenho ME2 Miyabiyama - MW2 Takekaze ME3 Yoshikaze - MW3 Goeido ME4 Kokkai - MW4 Wakanosato ME5 Takamisakari - MW5 Futeno ME6 Bushuyama - MW6 Aran ME7 Hokutoriki - MW7 Dejima ME8 Iwakiyama - MW8 Asasekiryu ME9 Tosanoumi - MW9 Chiyohakuho ME10 Tokitenku - MW10 Tochinoshin ME11 Tochinonada - MW11 Kakuryu ME12 Tochiozan - MW12 Kakizoe ME13 Koryu - MW13 Yamamotoyama ME14 Tamawashi - MW14 Toyohibiki ME15 Masatsukasa - MW15 Tamanoshima ME16 Shotenro - MW16 none In case Regis is a member of our forum, yes this is my final answer! I have now applied somewhere in the neighborhood of 36-48 hours working on this thing and at that point it almost, not quite but almost, ceases to be fun. Fun is after all what a game is supposed to be all about. I am setting myself a strict limit of no more than 4 hours from now, 6 at the absolute max, if I can't get it in that time frame shame on me. While Homasho has a chance to hang on at M16E it is relatively rare for a M15W to do so. Usually they get demoted to M16W or M17E when available. It does occur once in a while, but I feel they might be more inclined to give the Juryu Yusho winner a pat-on-the-back to go with his 2 million yen and boost him up to makuuchi, JMO of course.

At least nowadays there are some "guide lines" to be followed as opposed to the seemingly willy-nilly promotions that were fairly common in the 70's such as the case between Nagoya '76 and Aki '76. Note the pole vault of Kirinji from M4W to S1E and Wakajishi from M6E to K1E. Note also M3W Tamanofuji jumping over M1W Aobajo to K1W. Trust me in those days I never tried to "guess the banzuke", as far as I was concerned they were all having a happy sake party when they sat down to do those things then.

As the others have mentioned in more general terms - Harumafuji goes east because there's no other "overflow" sanyaku rikishi already occupying a solitary east slot above him, unlike when the previous three ozeki were promoted (where Asashoryu was still the sole yokozuna and had no west counterpart). I see that makes sense in a Japanese/Zen sort of way. I was looking in terms of balancing the division not just the Sanyaku. I was trying to even it out 21 rikishi East/West. By the way when did they raise the Makuuchi limit to 42? I noticed that when Asashoryu made Ozeki in Aki 2002 (at O3E) there were only 40 rikishi in Makuuchi.

Uhm, what's the difference? :-P I have in the past encountered at least once or twice situations where there was a difference of one rank. That being said however I cannot recall a SPECIFIC case at this time. It may simply have been brain fog from having overthought the situation at the time. I'm not a particle physicist like some of our members but my math is quite good at least through the high school algebra level but during some of these banzuke guessing sessions checking which in my case can go on for hours all qc bets are definitely off. If I come across one in the future I will definitely double check it and if still different document it for posterity. :-|

I am curious on this entry in your banzuke prognostication. When Kotooshu, Hakuho, and Kotomitsuki were shin Ozeki they all debuted at the lowest available WEST rank. In Kotooshu & Kotomitsuki's case O2W and in Hakuho's case at O3W. In all 3 situations they finished their Ozeki-toris with strong Jun-Yusho performances and in Kotomitsuki's and Hakuho's cases they finished their 2 preceeding basho with Jun-Yusho performances, yet they debuted at the WEST ranking. I am interested in why you believe Ama, sorry, Harumafuji will come in at the EAST spot?

Yes, that was an oopsie that I had actually caught but forgot to change it in my post, I now actually have these three positions as M15E Masatsukasa M15W Toyohibiki M16E Tamanoshima M16W None Thanks

Yes, as noted in my previous post, I tend to overpromote by deciding where the demotees should be and then filling the holes with the KK people. I am already re-thinking those two as well as others for my 2nd draft. Edit: Actually after checking it out see here. As you can see Tochinoshin made the same unexpected jump as I have indicated for Bushuyama, Aran is another story though and needs to come down at least a peg.

Funny, that was my first thought, too. Frustrating, ain't it. I could spend hours critiquing Chisaiyama's banzuke guess, but in lieu of that just one comment: Can we please put to rest the notion that the komusubi rank is simply Maegashira Zero and the sekiwake rank is Maegashira Minus One? (In jonokuchi...) That's just not how it works, not even "in theory". As regards the 1st point: Any critiquing you might offer would of course be welcome. As I noted in my comments in my post I realize that there are many problems with it. I especially have problems, every time not just this basho, with my mid to lower maegashiras. I just never can quite get the hang of dealing with so many poor and mediocre performances. I always tend to overpromote and/or demote. As regards the 2nd point: I don't regard Komosubi as M0 and Sekiwake as M-1, although I do use the negative values of the candidates to provide a guideline of who should normally be promoted higher. Then I have to try and deal with the mindset of the shimpan who are really doing the deciding. Not long ago the shimpan would always treat a superior performance, especially by the numbers and gleefully leapfrog a lower M over a higher M with a lesser record. However about a year and a half or 2 years ago they changed and went with a promote from the higher rank theory. Under the 1st theory Kisenosato should be K1E while Toyonoshima should be K1W. Under the alternative theory Toyonoshima would be K1E, Kotoshogiku would be K1W and Kisnosato would end up at M1E. Nowadays it appears to be a mix of both thought lines hence my belief that this time it will be Toyonoshima at K1E with Kisenosato ending at K1W jumping over Kotoshogiku at M3 since there is only 1 rank differential but the difference in their performances was so striking. I still contend that under the previous line of thinking of rewarding performance over rank that IF there were an opening at Sekiwake and Komosubi in this same instance that Kisenosato would have gotten the Sekiwake post, Toyo the KE and Koto the KW. I know also there is no single, "perfect" formula for generating a banzuke or we would all be 15-0 at GTB every time. I also know there are 2 prevalent schools of thought on predicting promotion/demotion numerically as a) Wins minus Losses = shift up/down the banzuke, or b) Maegashira rank plus losses - Wins = new rank. In my deliberations I normally work out the Sanyaku and above as, I believe at least we probably all manage to get at least the Sekiwake and above correct each time. Then I try to place the demotees using a combination of those processes (generally they will generate the same number, but not always). Then I try to place the promotees using the holes left from the demotion process. Unfortuneately I quite often end up as I said earlier overpromoting or demoting people. I really have a hard time applying "banzuke luck" as I tend to often over reward 8-7 people because I don't want to unduly reward 7-8 or 6-9 performers. Sorry didn't intend to to such depths of explanation. Basically I guess I am saying can anyone help me better understand the nuances of the placement of these "mediocre performers" the 6-9,7-8,9-7 people? (Whistling...)

Well the Kyushu basho has come and gone and Hatsu is looming on the horizon. We know we have a new Ozeki - Harumafuji and only 2 Makushita rikishi are advancing to Juryu, shin sekitori Kotokuni and multiple returnee Asofuji. So it's that magical time between the bashos when we all attempt to second and or third or fourth guess the shimpan and offer up our selections for the new banzuke. I'm willing to be the first to open themselves up for trash talking and/or ridicule by showing my choices for Kintamayama's mind devouring game. Here are my first thoughts on the subject. Some people had a lot of "banzuke luck" in my version but there were so many bad performances, e.g. 2-13s, 5-10s etc. and so few truly inspired ones by comparison. It was easier for me than Aki '08 but there are some sticky points and stumbling blocks. I am especially concerned about the Komosubi slots. I think it's nearly a foregone conclusion that Toyonoshima should have K1E wrapped up but I am torn between Kisenosato and Kotoshogiku for the K1W. I mean in theory the 11-4 from a M4E SHOULD be enough in good times for a Sekiwake slot, failing that I would like to believe with his previous Sanyaku experience the banzuke makers could easily leap frog him over the M3E Kotoshogiku, but WILL they? Yokozuna E: Hakuho Y1e (13-2) Yokozuna W: Asashoryu Y1w (0-0-15) Ozeki E: Kotomitsuki O1e (9-6) Ozeki W: Chiyotaikai O2e (8-7) Ozeki E2: Kotooshu O2w (8-7) Ozeki W2: Kaio O1w (1-3-11) Ozeki E3: None Ozeki W3: Ama S1e (13-2) Sekiwake E: Baruto S1w (9-6) Sekiwake W: Aminishiki K1w (8-7) Komusubi E: Toyonoshima M1e (9-6) Komusubi W: Kisenosato M4e (11-4) Maegashira E: Kotoshogiku M3e (9-6) Maegashira W: Kyokutenho M6w (10-5) Maegashira E2: Miyabiyama M7e (10-5) Maegashira W2: Takekaze M8e (9-6) Maegashira E3: Yoshikaze M12e (11-4) Maegashira W3: Aran M10w (8-7) Maegashira E4: Kokkai M11e (9-6) Maegashira W4: Bushuyama M10e (8-7) Maegashira E5: Wakanosato M2w (6-9) Maegashira W5: Goeido K1e (5-10) Maegashira E6: Takamisakari M14e (10-5) Maegashira W6: Futeno M1w (5-10) Maegashira E7: Tosanoumi M16e (9-6) Maegashira W7: Chiyohakuho M16w (9-6) Maegashira E8: Dejima M5w (6-9) Maegashira W8: Hokutoriki M3w (5-10) Maegashira E9: Iwakiyama J2e (11-4) Maegashira W9: Shotenro J9w (12-3) Maegashira E10: Tokitenku M9w (7-8) Maegashira W10: Asasekiryu M5e (5-10) Maegashira E11: Tamawashi J4w (10-5) Maegashira W11: Kakuryu M6e (5-6-4) Maegashira E12: Tochiozan M9e (6-9) Maegashira W12: Tochinonada M7w (5-10) Maegashira E13: Kakizoe M8w (5-10) Maegashira W13: Tochinoshin M4w (3-12) Maegashira E14: Yamamotoyama J3w (9-6) Maegashira W14: Koryu M11w (6-9) Maegashira E15: Tamanoshima M13w (6-9) Maegashira W15: Toyohibiki M2e (0-0-15) Maegashira E16: Masatsukasa M13e (6-9) Maegashira W16: None So that's how I got it figured for now. I will undoubtedly change many of them 2 or 3 times at least before the 22nd of December and end up no better off than if I had stuck with my first thoughts. That's how it usually works at least. Heck I did that so many times last time I never got around to entering the contest! At least this time I put these choices in so right or wrong at least I will have tried.

As with most/all things ozumo: tradition! I mean it doesn't have to go back centuries for it to be considered tradition. Look at the stink Ms. Uchidate raised over Asashoryu taking his kensho envelopes with his left hand instead of the "traditional right hand". Amazing since kensho envelops are a development of modern ozumo dating back basically to the beginning of televised matches I believe.

I know there is a ownership limit of 1 toshiyori per individual however Takanohana, who was granted Ichidai Toshiyori status, I believe is still the owner of Futagoyama name which is currently leant out. Wouldn't it be possible at least in the short term for Kotonishiki to continue borrowing Asakayama even if Kaio went intai while Kaio used his shikona as jun-toshiyori? I don't know what the etiquette and/or rules for that sort of thing are.

That's explained by the fact that Kotooshu won that yusho, and Aminishiki beat him... You are exactly right, I had forgottent about the Bulgarian aberration. Thanks!

Granted that this basho's Ozeki are hardly worth their salt, even Mickey only has 3 out of 5 wins so far however comma, Toyonoshima has faced all 4 and the only extant Yokozuna and come out if it with 4 wins and a heart murmur for Hakuho. His only real competitor at this point for Shukun sho is Aminishiki who, so far has 1 Yokozuna and 2 Ozeki under his belt. It has been my impression over the last couple of years at least that Shukun Sho has become almost exclusively a Yokozuna topplers club with the single inexplicable exception of Natsu '08 in which Aminishiki was awarded his 3rd Shukun Sho after a 10-5 performance from M4W but defeating only 2 Ozeki and 1 Komosubi in the process. So I am thinking that without a Yokozuna scalp on his belt he would need at least 10 wins to be considered. Since Aminishiki has the aforementioned scalp he would be a shoo-in if he achieves KK but if Toyo should get 10 or 11 he could be a co-winner as well.

While I totally agree with you, I have to say that the thought of Ozumo without Kaio just totally boggles the mind. I would rather see him be healthy enough to be a great Oyakata though than seeing him be crippled by injuries he just cannot afford to have anymore.

The man has 22 Yusho already, more records than you can shake a stick at and a name that is recognizable in almost any country in the world that has wrestling fans in it. Even if he were allowed to participate for another 2 years without winning another basho he still would not be categorized as having had an "average Yokozuna career"!