Doping in sumo

[Guest kayanote]

Does anybody have hard facts (or even any info) on doping

in sumo? Sumo is serious business, big money and big fame

is at stake, and my guess is that everybody is doped to the

extent their medical advisers find it compatible with some

measure of retaining their health. What was Takanohana's

liver trouble and skin rash in his face some time ago but

a result of helping a declining career with chemical means?

In my opinion, the sumo community can do with doping what

they think is best for them, but it would just be interesting

to know what is happening. Any educated guesses if not facts?

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

I actually think this question is harder to have an opinion on than even yaocho. It would not surprise me if there is doping, but frankly, it's almost impossible to know. And if there is, is it something controlled by the Kyokai, the heya, or just the person using the doping? It's simply impossible to answer, although I think it would lean towards a more individual doping, meaning that the Kyokai safely can say "we know nothing", whatever they suspect. But really, there is probably less actual facts to go on than even regarding yaocho, and that says a lot. I would be very suspicious against anyone here saying they have facts, or even educated guesses. And people have had non-doping related liver problems before, so not even that is more than pure speculation.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Is someone here versed in medicine? What kind of doping would be most beneficial for a rikishi? Which would be the signs of such substances?

I'd love to be assured of ozumo's pureness but not even I am that credulous.

[Hoshifransu 0]

I'm not so well informed as you but the first thing everybody think about is a Sumotori is doped with a great quantity of food, of course ! And precisely this point of view makes me believe to possibilities of doping. I don't know but nowadays everybody in our civilizations search to find best solutions to lose weight to look like thin models. If you look at some products sold anywhere, it really looks like doping. At the reverse anybody never talked about something like "how to keep up your weight and put on weight easily, ladies & gentlemen ..." and of course no products are sold in this sense. But if they exist, these products are certainly similar to these which make lose weight : sort of doping too. And if you're a sumotori who has difficulties to put on weight despites eating a lot of chanko nabe you can, the temptation is certainly great to use these products. And in Sumo, especially, you've got to make results to make a career, to exist. I think Kyokai rules are responsible too. You're demoted when you're absent for a too long time. And when you want to recover quickly or for only just a tournament, what do you do ? You use illegal products, of course. It's human. That's not especially for money in Sumo but simply to reach your real deserved, in one word : to emerge ! These rules of demotion when you're injured are really too hard and if Sumo Kyokai really wanted to fight against doping, they would have to change these rules of automatic demotion. :~-(

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

I can't say I'm much versed in medicine, but I would say just plain old nandrolone (the anabolic steroid several football players lately have been caught taking, and which has been the more common drug for 20 years or so) and other anabolic steroids, would be the most natural to take for sumo wrestlers. They make it easy to build up muscles quickly, and makes it easier to train for a longer period of time without the body saying no (which of course only means it doesn't SAY no, not that it doesn't take damage...). This is extra effective for hurt athletes who must regain muscle mass quickly (as was the case with a few of those football players). As is quite evident, this would be effective for sumo wrestlers as well, especially after being hurt, needing to get back in shape quickly. As Hoshifransu says, the current kosho rules seems to encourage doping, the way they work.

Furthermore, as I understand it, doping is a non-issue in the sumo community. It "doesn't exist", which should make it easier for wrestlers to use it without feeling they do anything wrong (but rather something that is a part of their sport). Without testing it should be almost impossible to detect or even suspect. Liver problems and acne are known sideeffects (that could actually be noticed), but I don't know what more could be detected by anyone but the rikishi himself.

One thing to remember is that among many sports, it's not necessarily the best athletes who take the drugs. As far as I understand it's just as common, if not more-so, that not-so-successful athletes try to get ahead in their career by taking drugs. Therefore it would surprise me a lot if NO rikishi EVER has been doped, but if it's not so common, it's quite impossible to know if we would find them in Sandanme, or among the yokozunas. Without tests it's hard even to speculate.

[Hoshifransu 0]

What I told previously is only pure speculation of mine, of course.

I really wish reality is other and that Sumo remains safe. In other sports like soccer, American football, doping is well known, and especially special injections for recovering from some injuries and to play again quickly and I really hope Sumo remains spared by all of it and in spite of Kyokai hard rules of demotion when you're injured.

It was only pessimistic speculation of mine, I'm sorry but comparatively to other sports, unfortunately ... the question may be asked. :~-(

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Yes, Hoshifransu, I agree that it might be pessimistic speculation, but I think one must regard everything as objectively as possible. Personally, I don't think doping is wide-spread in sumo. But I do think that it exists, simply because its positive effects (and note that if you're competitive enough, you might disregard the negative ones) are relatively widely known, and it should not be too hard to acquire the drugs if actually trying (whether within Japan or not). I have a hard time seeing how NO 26-year-old half-failed Sandanme rikishi, would get the idea to try drugs (possibly while trying to explain to himself how EVERYONE is using it anyway, so why shouldn't he?) and actually succeed in finding them, through the Internet or some local gym. I don't believe the NSK are actively fixing drugs to rikishi, but it's concievable that there are doctors associated with some stables, also prepared to give the drugs to interested rikishi, and that oyakata despite suspecting what's going on, actively tries to look the other way. The pressure put on rikishi to recover from injuries are also so severe that even rikishi never even thinking about using drugs before, could become desperate enough when the situation arises. Not because they want to cheat, but simply because they like sumo so much, and want to stay. It's unfortunately, not far-fetched, and even if no rikishi have used drugs yet, it's bound to happen. Personally I would want drug tests in sumo (as I would in every sport there is around the globe), but I haven't heard that there are right now (please correct me if I'm wrong), and in that case, it's unlikely to happen without severe external pressure upon the NSK.

[Hoshifransu 0]

Personally, I haven't so much knowledges in Sumo (and in doping) to tell more, but if there's one sport where the recovery is hard to live, it's Sumo. In other sports, where doping is officially "recognized" good players have to recover, they risk to lose their place, but when they are completely fit, a chance is still given to them to come back and play at top level, and nevertheless doping is well known. In Sumo, when you're fit again, you've been droped down into lower divisions and you've already lost a lot of time in your career to recover and you must take time again to win promotions in lower divisions to go back to your deserved real reached rank and when you've just made it, you can be back to recovery again ... That's why I don't know if Sumo is concerned by doping and if not, that's a real great beautiful spirit about it in this sport. If doping exists, I really understand sumotori's motivations as regards that unacceptable rule of demotion of recovering wrestlers.

As you said, Yubiquitoyama-San, anti-dopping tests should be settled by NSK. But Sumo remains very attached to tradition and so is doping a too current fact of nowadays to be included and shake the Sumo world ? Well, I really don't know but I praise NSK to make a choice : to make anti-dopping tests or to alter this kyujo demotion rule ... and if doping or not, that rule is unjust and put a bit more pressure on the Sumo professional world ... :~-(

[Guest Kaikitsune]

To add some points to the discussion:

Anabolic steroids, growth hormones etc. do have some visible side effects. As stated increased acne and "internal organ problems" can be such. But in more individual level a rapid weight increase after fighting years at the same weight (approximately) can be quite suspicious.

I am sure many rikishi have a lot of natural talent in gaining muscle (and fat for that matter) as many rikishi were already much bigger than average when they were youngsters. Then there are cases like Kotomitsuki who was 150kg already when 21 years old and still an amateur (and now weighs about the same and has the same kind of body as then).

But the lack of doping tests and the nature of the sport.. it is quite certain that doping exists but also the fact that many rikishi don`t use much of the "modern training techniques" like heavy gym training etc. I could imagine doping is not as hot in sumo world as it can be in some other sports where strength is essential. Who knows though!

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Anabolic steroids, growth hormones etc. do have some visible side effects. As stated increased acne and "internal organ problems" can be such. But in more individual level a rapid weight increase after fighting years at the same weight (approximately) can be quite suspicious.

But there are a couple of extra complications in sumo (regarding suspecting doping). First, most of the rikishi are already very big, weighing a lot. Even during relatively normal circumstances, plus minus 10 kg isn't so much when weighing 170, and can be caused by very natural and normal changes in habits (drinking/eating less/more etc).

Another point is that while in many sports, such an increase in weight can be quite suspicious, sumo is one of the few sports where not only muscle gain, but weight gain in itself (being it all fat) is sometimes positive. Since (if I understand it correctly) it's much easier to gain fat than muscle, it's not at all apparent whether the weight gain is caused by eating or unnatural use of drugs. Look at Onokuni for example, who tipped the scales at 200 kg. When he emerged in Juryo, he was around 130...

[Guest Kaikitsune]

But there are a couple of extra complications in sumo (regarding suspecting doping). First, most of the rikishi are already very big, weighing a lot. Even during relatively normal circumstances, plus minus 10 kg isn't so much when weighing 170, and can be caused by very natural and normal changes in habits (drinking/eating less/more etc).

That is true and I wasn`t really referring to such weight fluctuations. Many rikishi have weight fluctuations even 10kg or so (Maru has even more as he was down to 215 at one point) and are based on variation in training, eating, injuries etc. However if a rikishi has been 145-150kg for many years and then suddenly gains 10+ kg. That seems "abnormal" as there must be a reason for such increase all of a sudden and doping-induced is not a bad bet then I think. Naturally it can be multiple other reasons too.

sumo is one of the few sports where not only muscle gain, but weight gain in itself (being it all fat) is sometimes positive.

This is besides the point a bit but just came to my mind that often that weight gain even if is it only fat "helps" the training in one way. For example when Onokuni was 180kg and training shikos, suriashis, push-ups etc. he had more weight to move around. Clumsyness is inevitable but strength-wise Onokuni probably benefitted from the weight increase ( I am sure though that his weight gain was not just fat but just gave an example).

[Chiyozakura 163]

The question to me is: Is Doping in Sumo a bad thing?

In sports like cycling you get the impression that nearly everybody is doping and there is a competition to hide it.If athletes want to improve their performances with doping it is alright to me. There are still many legal ways to push you up which are as dangerous as forbidden substances.

In Germany we had the already legendary story of Dieter Baumann who was tested and for three or four years now is saying that somebody manipulated his toothpaste...how many football players tested positively consist that they did not know about the doping? I am really happy that these discussions do not exist in Sumo.You cannot find any substances anyway...

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

The question to me is: Is Doping in Sumo a bad thing? In sports like cycling you get the impression that nearly everybody is doping and there is a competition to hide it.If athletes want to improve their performances with doping it is alright to me.

Well, I agree with the question, but not with the answer. I'm of the opinion that doping should be quenched with all possible means, whatever the sport, and every case found is better than that case remaining hidden, since it might discourage just a few more in the future. I admit that the barr has to be set somewhere, but that should not discourage the powers that be from putting up any barr at all.

There are still many legal ways to push you up which are as dangerous as forbidden substances.

While I would like examples, I must say that doesn't change the issue much. Just because there are other dangerous ways too, does not make doping any less dangerous. I can only see doping as a form of cheating, and that the use of doping simply should not be allowed, as part of the rules, the same way it's not allowed to step outside of the dohyo, without losing the match.

If the athletes think that doping is necessary and that it's part of the game etc, it must be made clear that it's not accepted, or it will be increasingly common. I think that is unacceptable, and really hope it hasn't begun to be too big a problem already whenever the Kyokai decides to do anything about it. In cycle, it's apparent it had been allowed to continue for much too long.

In Germany we had the already legendary story of Dieter Baumann who was tested and for three or four years now is saying that somebody manipulated his toothpaste...how many football players tested positively consist that they did not know about the doping? I am really happy that these discussions do not exist in Sumo.You cannot find any substances anyway...

Yes, that is purely ridiculous and the case about Dieter Baumann's spiked toothpaste (PLEASE...) is often mentioned in Swedish debates on the subject as well. These athletes have (in most cases) deliberately done something that wasn't allowed, and then when they are caught, they can't even stand up for that decision. Even worse is the fact that many of those who denies the obvious actually can get free, while those who stand up for what they did and admit their use of doping, always gets punished (although of course they deserve it as well).

I don't know what you mean with "you cannot find any substances anyway" though. Quite a few people have been caught with nandrolone and several other drugs DESPITE the often pathetic measures from the parties searching for the drugs. But of course, the NSK know that anything they did might start a debate, or even may result in finding drugs. That is of course not possible for them. Instead they hope no one even thinks of the possiblity of doping in sumo. Sigh.

[Chiyozakura 163]

I don't know what you mean with "you cannot find any substances anyway" though. Quite a few people have been caught with nandrolone and several other drugs DESPITE the often pathetic measures from the parties searching for the drugs. But of course, the NSK know that anything they did might start a debate, or even may result in finding drugs. That is of course not possible for them. Instead they hope no one even thinks of the possiblity of doping in sumo. Sigh.

I don't know what you mean with "you cannot find any substances anyway" though. Quite a few people have been caught with nandrolone and several other drugs DESPITE the often pathetic measures from the parties searching for the drugs. But of course, the NSK know that anything they did might start a debate, or even may result in finding drugs. That is of course not possible for them. Instead they hope no one even thinks of the possiblity of doping in sumo. Sigh.

What I really wanted to write was "You cannot find ALL substances anyway".

In sports like cycling you get the impression that it is a question of luck and knowledge of doping if you are caught or not.Once the Tour de France has ended you can wait some time to find out if the winner really is the winner or if they found steroids.Even if they don't it is still doubtful that with so many athletes caught the best of them all did not take anything...

My point is that you either have a system that really works without any backdoors for cheaters or you leave it completely.The current system has even legal ways to avoid it.If you have certain illnesses you are allowed to take medicine that contains illegal substances that could help you in your sport.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

What I really wanted to write was "You cannot find ALL substances anyway".

In sports like cycling you get the impression that it is a question of luck and knowledge of doping if you are caught or not.Once the Tour de France has ended you can wait some time to find out if the winner really is the winner or if they found steroids.Even if they don't it is still doubtful that with so many athletes caught the best of them all did not take anything...

I agree it's almost impossible to find every case of doping, or at least be sure having found it. But the same goes for winners in a match (maybe even with video help, the wrong person might get the nod) etc etc. I can't see it as a strong argument against trying to stop doping. Just because everyone cheats, doesn't mean cheating should be permitted. With that kind of reasoning, I could easily make all crime disappear in Sweden, by simply permitting everything...

One thing you CAN be sure of though is that if you don't look, you won't find any cases at all. Actually, it's quite certain there will be MORE of the top men using drugs, if it's not even prohibited. Again, I can't see that as a good reason to just accept it. The question on acceptance must be settled without those things in mind, but rather based on the general view on whether doping should be permitted or not. It will take some convincing to get me to accept doping, I can assure you...

The main reason why Cycling is so affected as it is, is that it has been left almost untested for so long time. While of course the drug users will find better and better ways to conceal their doping, as it becomes more necessary to be careful, I'm sure it's possible for the drug hunters to close the gap so much that eventually, it will hardly be worth the risk to use drugs at all. But that time will never come, if it's just accepted. The main men in Cycling would be doped even if they weren't found out. One less drugged Cyclist is a step in the right direction, as far as I can see.

My point is that you either have a system that really works without any backdoors for cheaters or you leave it completely.The current system has even legal ways to avoid it.If you have certain illnesses you are allowed to take medicine that contains illegal substances that could help you in your sport.

No system will EVER be totally free from backdoors. It's possible to make it really good though. If only systems free from backdoors were accepted, no sports could be played at all, since there are always a margin of error in interpreting the rules in certain situations, whether it be an offside situation in football or doping.

Furthermore, doping is of such a kind that the only way to actually achieve a system almost free from backdoors is to apply and hone the system within the sport, against actual cases, financed to be able to fight the problem, or the system will never get better than it already is.

Regarding doping of athletes because of illnesses etc, it's unfortunate, but it's part of the rules. First, many of those "doping" cases are with drugs that wouldn't give any help in the specific sport the athlete pursues. Many of the more obvious and effective drugs such as anabolic steroids and growth hormones are rarely seen in flu medicine. Personally though, I think all such medication should be banned if a relatively similar drug, not prohibited, could be used instead. I don't think athletes should be severely punished for having astma or diabetes though, so if the banned medicine is the only one available, it'll have to be accepted anyway. The astma or diabetes will undoubtedly still be a problem certainly as big as the supposed advantage of the drug (which also often are of a relative small amount in specific medicines, compared to drugs targeted for doping).

[Kintamayama 47,114]

I am naive:-0  in that I'm 100 percent sure there is no doping whatsoever..gut feeling..  :-Q