Retirement criteria

[Manekineko 200]

Here's a couple of idle questions I'm sure some of our statisticians would be happy to answer in detail:

1. How many former Ozeki retired immediately after losing their rank (and the chance for automatic repromotion with 10 wins next basho?)

2. How many former Ozeki retired after dropping out of san'yaku?

3. How many former Ozeki retired while still not in risk of falling into Juryo?

4. Did any former Ozeki not retire after dropping to Juryo?

5. Is the loss of sekitoridom for a one-time makuuchi yusho winner considered so bad that he has to reitire? In other words, did any makuuchi yusho winner continue his career after dropping into Makushita?

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

4. Did any former Ozeki not retire after dropping to Juryo?

5. Is the loss of sekitoridom for a one-time makuuchi yusho winner considered so bad that he has to reitire? In other words, did any makuuchi yusho winner continue his career after dropping into Makushita?

For the Ozeki reitirements, I might get back later, but the last two questions the answers are pretty simple (although I might have missed something I in that case will correct later) :

4: Yes, Daiju. And it was not really considered the correct thing to do for a former Ozeki...

5: Yes, it is. No former Makunouchi yusho winner continued in Makushita for even one basho, at least since 1909.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

5. Is the loss of sekitoridom for a one-time makuuchi yusho winner considered so bad that he has to reitire? In other words, did any makuuchi yusho winner continue his career after dropping into Makushita?

I doubt there are many makuuchi yusho winners who continued in juryo either, let alone makushita. I seem to recall that when Kotofuji (winner of Nagoya '91) was about to drop to juryo after Aki '94, Sadogatake suggested he quit altogether but seems like he went on for another year before retiring in Aki '95.

[QttP 0]

I doubt there are many makuuchi yusho winners who continued in juryo either, let alone makushita. I seem to recall that when Kotofuji (winner of Nagoya '91) was about to drop to juryo after Aki '94, Sadogatake suggested he quit altogether but seems like he went on for another year before retiring in Aki '95.

And then there's also Takatoriki, who continued for a few bashos in Juryo, and only retired when his demotion to Makushita became obvious.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

5. Is the loss of sekitoridom for a one-time makuuchi yusho winner considered so bad that he has to reitire? In other words, did any makuuchi yusho winner continue his career after dropping into Makushita?

I doubt there are many makuuchi yusho winners who continued in juryo either, let alone makushita. I seem to recall that when Kotofuji (winner of Nagoya '91) was about to drop to juryo after Aki '94, Sadogatake suggested he quit altogether but seems like he went on for another year before retiring in Aki '95.

Well, it's not really that uncommon. About half of the Makunouchi winners who never reached higher than Sekiwake continues at least one basho in Juryo when demoted, and of late it has become even more common, including the last five examples, Takatoriki, Kotonishiki, Kotofuji, Mitoizumi and Tagaryu. It's just that most Makunouchi yusho winners DO become Ozeki or more eventually.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

(...) of late it has become even more common, including the last five examples, Takatoriki, Kotonishiki, Kotofuji, Mitoizumi and Tagaryu.

Now that you mention those names, I have but to agree with you. The practise seems to have become more lenient of late.

[Zentoryu 154]

About half of the Makunouchi winners who never reached higher than Sekiwake continues at least one basho in Juryo when demoted, and of late it has become even more common, including the last five examples, Takatoriki, Kotonishiki, Kotofuji, Mitoizumi and Tagaryu.

There also didn't seem to be any pressure on them to retire (Takatoriki, Kotonishiki and Mitoizumi I mean). At least I didn't see any reports where an Oyakata or something suggested that they retire.

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

Along the lines of the original questions in this thread:

1. If your oyakata suggests you retire, do you have to retire?

2. If your oyakata suggests you retire, but you choose to continue wrestling, can you say in the same heya?

3. If some other (not your) oyakata suggests you retire, how seriously should you consider this suggestion?

4. Can the kyokai force someone to retire?

Examples are welcome for all of the above... (Enjoying a beer...)

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Along the lines of the original questions in this thread:

1. If your oyakata suggests you retire, do you have to retire?

2. If your oyakata suggests you retire, but you choose to continue wrestling, can you say in the same heya?

3. If some other (not your) oyakata suggests you retire, how seriously should you consider this suggestion?

4. Can the kyokai force someone to retire?

Examples are welcome for all of the above...    (Enjoying a beer...)

None of these should really be considered hard and fast rules. Except that the Kyokai CAN force someone into retirement, as in the case of ex-yokozuna Futahaguro (use the sumo mailing list archives at banzuke.com for more on that one) , but only really when the rikishi in question did something extremely unappropriate.

In normal cases, it's more an issue of pressure from the Kyokai, from the oyakata and from the general public (not necessarily in that order) that makes the rikishi make his own decision. This amount of pressure depends on the rank of the rikishi, the circumstances and of course precedences. The system works because most rikishi understand when it's time to retire (of course based on whatever suggestions and pressure put upon him from oyakatas, media etc) , so it is never really taken to its extreme. I would guess that a rikishi (a yokozuna probably) who have several times outright refused to retire despite strong urgings from the Kyokai COULD be forced to retire, but it hasn't happened yet, and I doubt it ever will.

I doubt very strongly any oyakata would force his deshi to retire, but it's quite obvious he would try to convince him, if a bad decision (in the mind of the oyakata) was being made. But a suggestion from the oyakata is still only a suggestion and since there is no such thing as changing stable within sumo, the rikishi will have no problem (other than possible tension between him and his oyakata) staying.

All of this of course is about sekitori rikishi and the like. For a youngster, I'm sure the power of the oyakata is much bigger and that he practically can force a rikishi into retirement.

Edited April 14, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama

[Zenjimoto 40]

OK, this question may have been asked... but, is it totally a given that once some one retires, that's IT? Or have there been cases where retirees actually DID come back?

I am thinking of cases where perhaps relatively young rikishi might have been forced to retire due to various circumstances, but later may have been able to compete again... and perhaps tried to make a comeback at the bottom of the banzuke again? Has this ever happened? Can it?

Cheers

Zenjimoto

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

OK, this question may have been asked... but, is it totally a given that once some one retires, that's IT? Or have there been cases where retirees actually DID come back?

I am thinking of cases where perhaps relatively young rikishi might have been forced to retire due to various circumstances, but later may have been able to compete again... and perhaps tried to make a comeback at the bottom of the banzuke again? Has this ever happened? Can it?

Cheers

Zenjimoto

Hm. I know it has happened that people have been away, even for a long time and returned, but I am not sure whether the actual retirement papers have been filed.

In any case, I seem to recall having heard of at least one case where a rikishi quit and returned much later, but I can't recall exactly whom. I also think the second world war might have caused some special cases where rikishi left to join the war and returned much later.

In other words: I don't know (Enjoying a beer...)

As I understand it though, it's quite final in any ordinary cases. It's the extraordinary cases I'm not so sure about. Remember that there are rikishi who have been off-banzuke for more than a year and a half without ending up on the retirement lists, so I figure the oyakata tend not to actually send in the retirement papers until it's certain.

[Chiyozakura 163]

As far as I know the rikishi himself does not have much to say about his retirement theoretically. It is the Oyakata who sends the retirement papers to the Kyokai. If I remember correctly Futahaguro "retired" beause his Oyakata send the retirement papers and so it was a final decision. Futahaguro got to knew about it in a hotel room where he lived after he ran away from the heya.

A switch of stables is impossible with two exeptions. Either your old stable is closed and all deshi are transfered to another heya or an Oyakata of the heya founds a new one and takes a rikishi with him. A famous incident was that of former Yokozuna Chiyonoyama, who out of Dewanoumi Beya founded Kokonoe Beya. Dewanoumis heyagashira Ozeki Kitanofuji went with him after threatening to retire if he had to stay in Dewanoumi. Then he directly won the Makuuchi Yusho in the first ever basho of Kokonoe Beya. In addition to that the newly founded heya also had the Juryo winner in their roster.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

As far as I know the rikishi himself does not have much to say about his retirement theoretically. It is the Oyakata who sends the retirement papers to the Kyokai.

Well, yes, but apart from the extreme cases such as Futahaguro, I have never heard of anyone being retired against his will. So of course the rikishi has a say in it. It's just that the actual paperwork is done by his oyakata.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

I also think the second world war might have caused some special cases where rikishi left to join the war and returned much later.

Yokozuna Kagamisato is said to have been in service in the Imperial Army during the war after which he was promoted to juryo in November 1945 and to makuuchi in June 1947. I think also two maegashira were recruited into the army but I couldn't find their shikonas.

Speaking of WWII, maegashiras Matsuragata and Toyoshima were killed on March 10th, 1945 in an exceptionally violent bombing wave over Tokyo ("Tokyo-dai-kuusyuu").

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

I also think the second world war might have caused some special cases where rikishi left to join the war and returned much later.

Yokozuna Kagamisato is said to have been in service in the Imperial Army during the war after which he was promoted to juryo in November 1945 and to makuuchi in June 1947. I think also two maegashira were recruited into the army but I couldn't find their shikonas.

Yes, there were many such cases, and some of them were even mentioned on the banzuke, although actually in the war. See for example

http://www.banzuke.com/banzuke/b194005.html

and

http://www.banzuke.com/banzuke/b194201.html

But I thought that maybe there could have been some who actually were retired and were allowed to return after the war. I'm sure it was the type of conditions that might make for some flexibility in the rules.