Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted June 23, 2002 Y Musashimaru (Y, 13-2) Takanohana (Y, 0-0-15) O Kaio (O, 11-4) Chiyotaikai (O, 11-4) O Tochiazuma (O, 10-5) Musoyama (O, 9-5-1) S Asashoryu (S, 11-4) Wakanosato (K, 8-7) K Miyabiyama (M3, 10-5) Tosanoumi (M2, 8-7) M1 Tochinonada (K, 7-8) Kotonowaka (M6, 9-6) M2 Takamisakari (M6, 8-7) Kyokushuzan (M10, 10-5) M3 Dejima (M9, 9-6) Kotoryu (M8, 8-7) M4 Takanowaka (M3, 7-8) Kaiho (M8, 8-7) M5 Aminishiki (M1, 5-10) Hokutoriki (M14, 11-4) M6 Tamakasuga (M5, 7-8) Kotomitsuki (S, 0-0-15) M7 Toki (M1, 4-11) Takanonami (M2, 4-11) M8 Kyokutenho (M4, 6-9) Shimotori (M14, 10-5) M9 Otsukasa (M7, 7-8) Daizen (M4, 4-11) M10 Wakanoyama (M7, 6-9) Tochisakae (M15, 8-7) M11 Tokitsuumi (M11, 0-0-15) Akinoshima (M5, 3-12) M12 Jumonji (M9, 6-9) Aogiyama (J3, 10-5) M13 Hayateumi (J2, 9-6) Chiyotenzan (M10, 5-10) M14 Hamanishiki (M12, 6-9) Buyuzan (M12, 6-9) M15 Oikari (M13, 6-9) Tamanoshima (M11, 5-10) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hoshifransu 0 Posted June 25, 2002 About Kyokai's banzuke, I find them still more and more unfair ... Towanoyama from Juryo 9 with 5-10 to Makushita 1 is really unfair ... meanwhile Minatofuji went down from Juryo 11 to Juryo 13 with 6-9 ! Isn't there a sort of "vendetta" against the heaviest wrestlers (Towanoyama) and the foreign wrestlers (Sentoryu) ? Look at that : Sentoryu lost 40 places, he's now Makushita 41 ... he was Juryo 3 two basho ago and before that, he was in Makuuchi ... It's crazy ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,259 Posted June 25, 2002 About Kyokai's banzuke, I find them still more and more unfair ...Towanoyama from Juryo 9 with 5-10 to Makushita 1 is really unfair ... meanwhile Minatofuji went down from Juryo 11 to Juryo 13 with 6-9 ! Isn't there a sort of "vendetta" against the heaviest wrestlers (Towanoyama) and the foreign wrestlers (Sentoryu) ? Look at that : Sentoryu lost 40 places, he's now Makushita 41 ... he was Juryo 3 two basho ago and before that, he was in Makuuchi ... It's crazy ! I don't understand how you can make out any unfairnesses to specific groups of rikishi. If anything I think that a Minatofuji demotion would have been unfair because he won the "Makushita-Juryo exchange bout" on Senshuraku against Tomikaze while Towanoyama lost to Kotokanyu (if I remember the opponents right). In the case of Sentoryu you really must be kidding. It is tragic for sure, but it is quite obvious that any rikishi in his place would have gotten the same demotion with a 0-0-7 without kosho status. The only really curious thing in the new banzuke is Kyokutenho's placement behind Kotomitsuki, Toki and Takanonami. He should have been ahead of all three, especially ahead of Takanonami, based on previous banzuke. Hamanoyama, Feginowaka and Kurausu are saying the same in the German forum, so I'm not alone here. But I don't believe this happened because Kyokutenho is Mongolian. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yubiquitoyama 4 Posted June 25, 2002 In the case of Sentoryu you really must be kidding. It is tragic for sure, but it is quite obvious that any rikishi in his place would have gotten the same demotion with a 0-0-7 without kosho status. I agree Alexander. In fact, this is not even a choice for the Kyokai. This is pretty much a hard and fast rule. A 0-0-7 which is not kosho means a 40 place drop starting in Makushita, a 60 place drop starting in Sandanme and a 70 place drop starting in Jonidan. It has been that way for years and is as far as I can see not up for discussion. The only really curious thing in the new banzuke is Kyokutenho's placement behind Kotomitsuki, Toki and Takanonami. He should have been ahead of all three, especially ahead of Takanonami, based on previous banzuke. Hamanoyama, Feginowaka and Kurausu are saying the same in the German forum, so I'm not alone here. But I don't believe this happened because Kyokutenho is Mongolian. Yes, I had my GTB that way too... But somehow the Kyokai found a way to demote Kyokutenho. In general though I don't think the Kyokai has a very personal view of the banzuke. It's relatively easy to predict, as the success in GTB of Hamanoyama, Feginowaka, Kurausu and even Alexander and myself should prove. Of course there will always be discrepancies, but they are not very big, and above all, they don't seem to follow a pattern , which they surely would, if there was some sort of corruption in the system. Remember how benevolent the Kyokai was to Kyokutenho just a few basho ago when he got a Komusubi position I personally think he shouldn't have gotten at the time. Regarding the demotions of Minatofuji and Towanoyama, a 5-10 is generally seen as worse than 6-9 by the Kyokai, compared to other relative make-koshi records. On most places of the banzuke, a 1 loss difference between rikishi will mean that the lower ranked (and 1 more win) will be demoted to a lower position if it's 3 half-ranks below the higher one. Especially in the case of 5-10 vs 6-9 though, it's rather 4 half-ranks, as seen in the Makunouchi/Juryo battle between Tochinohana and Tamanoshima. This is pretty much the way the Kyokai seems to do it, and although one could think they would want to keep a long-time Makunouchi such as Minatofuji in sekitori-ranks, this particular case does not need to have such a reason. It's simply the way it's done. On the other hand, regarding the Juryo/Makushita exchange bout, there have been examples where such a bout has not been treated the way it "should" when the banzuke has been made later. I seem to recall what seemed to be a Juryo/Makushita exchange bout a year and a half ago or so where Hoshitango won but still did not get the promotion. In general though, I simply think the Kyokai is as fair as they reasonably can be making the banzuke. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hoshifransu 0 Posted June 25, 2002 Oops ! It seems I said foolishnesses, one more time ... I realize how my knowledges in Sumo are weak, in fact ! And I realize how the demotion rules are hard too ... Well, well, well ... And "40 places down" is normal ... Really hard rules ... Poor Sentoryu ... And about Towanoyama, I'm sad too because he made it kyujo when he was promoted to Makuuchi and he was down to Juryo 9 and now in Makushita ... Kyokai rules of demotion are really too hard ... I really hope Sentoryu can bounce back ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
