Kaio's makuuchi streak & Chiyotaikai's kadoban record

[Sensonishiki 0]

Like many fans out there, I am hoping that Kaio breaks Takamiyama's makuuchi record.

Since Takamiyama was not an Ozeki (with the attendant pressure to retire upon demotion due to two consecutuve MK), I wondered what rank Takamiyama was when he retired. It turns out he was demoted from makuuchi to juryo, and fought two bashos in the lower division.

So if Kaio were to retire at a similar rank, in many respects he has already beaten Takamiyama's record. So long as he continues to fight even if he does get demoted, he will easily go beyond 97 bashos, and most likely at least 100. Of course, his Ozeki pride probably means he will retire if he is demoted - so we hope for a couple more KK to seal the deal.

While Chiyotaikai owns a very undesirable record by going 2-13, the record of the most kadoban needs to be put in perspective. Because he has over 10 YEARS at Ozeki, he has had correspondingly more 'chances' to go kadoban. I would be interested in the RATIO of kadoban to bashos at the Ozeki rank - I suspect he may fare better on that scale (I wonder if anyone has figured out that statistic).

[Asameshimae 220]

I certainly am rooting for Kaio to break some records. He is heading for a number of longevity records, though number of bashos in Makuuchi is the one he is closest to beating. I respect Takamiyama, but he was before my time (maybe not the best reason).

I am worried about Chiyotaikai and so are a lot of Japanese fans. Most would like to see more Japanese at the top and Kaio is getting old and Chiyotaikai certainly seems to have lost his spark. Kotomitsuki ain't getting any younger, which would and could leave only a bunch of young foreigners in the two top sanyaku. I wonder what the reception to that would be?

[Shomishuu 0]

Like many fans out there, I am hoping that Kaio breaks Takamiyama's makuuchi record.

Since Takamiyama was not an Ozeki (with the attendant pressure to retire upon demotion due to two consecutuve MK), I wondered what rank Takamiyama was when he retired. It turns out he was demoted from makuuchi to juryo, and fought two bashos in the lower division.

So if Kaio were to retire at a similar rank, in many respects he has already beaten Takamiyama's record. So long as he continues to fight even if he does get demoted, he will easily go beyond 97 bashos, and most likely at least 100. Of course, his Ozeki pride probably means he will retire if he is demoted - so we hope for a couple more KK to seal the deal.

While Chiyotaikai owns a very undesirable record by going 2-13, the record of the most kadoban needs to be put in perspective. Because he has over 10 YEARS at Ozeki, he has had correspondingly more 'chances' to go kadoban. I would be interested in the RATIO of kadoban to bashos at the Ozeki rank - I suspect he may fare better on that scale (I wonder if anyone has figured out that statistic).

Maybe a more equitable way to compare them would be using the ratio of make koshi to number of ozeki basho, rather than using kadoban; this because the criteria for kadoban itself have changed several times through the ages (somewhat self serving here because I have the make koshi data at hand but not the kadoban...). At any rate, there have been 25 ozeki since about 1950 with 10 or more basho at the rank, and here they are listed in order of the percentage of their total ozeki basho in which they were make koshi (i.e., worst first).

I apologize, I don't know how to enter a post so that the columns line up (maybe someone who knows how to do this can PM me...). The columns are OZEKI - # OZEKI BASHO - # MK BASHO - MK PCT.

Chiyotaikai is the leader in total make koshi with 16 but is only 9th on this list with a MK ratio of 26%, so I believe your point is well taken. Kaio fares slightly better than Chiyo. Lots of other interesting placements in this category, but after all, it is just one category.

1. Matsunobori 15 7 .47

2. Kotogahama 28 12 .43

3. Tochiazuma 26 11 .42

4. Wakahaguro 13 5 .38

5. Musoyama 27 9 .33

6. Kirishima 16 5 .31

7. Maenoyama 10 3 .30

8. Tochihikari 22 6 .27

9. Chiyotaikai 61 16 .26

10. Yutakayama 35 9 .26

11. Kaio 52 13 .25

12. Dejima 12 3 .25

13. Daikirin 25 6 .24

14. Konishiki 39 8 .21

15. Kitabayama 31 6 .19

16. Takanonami 37 7 .19

17. Kiyokuni 28 5 .18

18. Wakashimazu 28 5 .18

19. Asashio 36 5 .14

20. Hokutenyu 44 6 .14

21. Takanohana 50 6 .12

22. Kotooshu 20 2 .10

23. Kotomitsuki 10 1 .10

24. Asahikuni 21 2 .10

25. Kotokaze 22 2 .09

[Stephanoshima 0]

Since Takamiyama was not an Ozeki (with the attendant pressure to retire upon demotion due to two consecutuve MK)

Who would expect an Ozeki to retire after two consecutive MK?

[Doitsuyama 1,259]

Since Takamiyama was not an Ozeki (with the attendant pressure to retire upon demotion due to two consecutuve MK)

Who would expect an Ozeki to retire after two consecutive MK?

Good question, not that many ozeki retire then, even Takanonami fought on. There is a clear expectation of former ozeki to retire before getting demoted to juryo though.

But the pressure is there for Kaio as he unmistakenly stated that he will retire when he will be demoted.

[Chisaiyama 11]

Since we are discussing the performance of Ozeki in general and the 2 Oldies-but-Goodies in particular, I have a question about what happens when the rare occasion occurs and there are either only 1 or even, albeit rarely, no Ozekis on the banzuke. I know that in these instances that 1 or more (as needed) Yokozunas will be assigned as Yokozuna-Ozeki.

What I am wondering is how is it decided which Yokozuna fulfuill that duty. Does it start with the most senior or the most Junior? Does it affect whether or not they participate in Musubi-no-Ichiban? Also, for that matter, have the rules regarding Musubi-no-Ichiban changed since say the '80s? I ask because In Aki '81 Kitanoumi Y1E and Chiyonofuji Y1W alternated in the Musubi-no-Ichiban on days 1-3 but starting on day 4 after Chiyonofuji had gone kyujo Kitanoumi was the only Yokozuna participating in MNI bouts despite the fact that Wakanohana II was YEHD.

Thanks in advance for any information anyone can give on this.

[Doitsuyama 1,259]

Since we are discussing the performance of Ozeki in general and the 2 Oldies-but-Goodies in particular, I have a question about what happens when the rare occasion occurs and there are either only 1 or even, albeit rarely, no Ozekis on the banzuke. I know that in these instances that 1 or more (as needed) Yokozunas will be assigned as Yokozuna-Ozeki.

What I am wondering is how is it decided which Yokozuna fulfuill that duty. Does it start with the most senior or the most Junior? Does it affect whether or not they participate in Musubi-no-Ichiban? Also, for that matter, have the rules regarding Musubi-no-Ichiban changed since say the '80s? I ask because In Aki '81 Kitanoumi Y1E and Chiyonofuji Y1W alternated in the Musubi-no-Ichiban on days 1-3 but starting on day 4 after Chiyonofuji had gone kyujo Kitanoumi was the only Yokozuna participating in MNI bouts despite the fact that Wakanohana II was YEHD.

Thanks in advance for any information anyone can give on this.

The first question is easy - it's the yokozuna on the side of the banzuke where the ozeki is missing.

The second question - well where did you get the MNI information? I hope not from Sumo Reference because I have to admit that I have the precise bout order only for the Heisei period. For Showa I have "only" sources about the bouts, not about the order. I reconstructed the order with the help of a simple algorithm which is considering the usual East-West switches and yokozuna rotations (as well as ozeki, sekiwake and komusubi rotations), but does have some issues when one rikishi in a sanyaku rotation group goes kyujo.

[Chisaiyama 11]

The second question - well where did you get the MNI information? I hope not from Sumo Reference because I have to admit that I have the precise bout order only for the Heisei period. For Showa I have "only" sources about the bouts, not about the order. I reconstructed the order with the help of a simple algorithm which is considering the usual East-West switches and yokozuna rotations (as well as ozeki, sekiwake and komusubi rotations), but does have some issues when one rikishi in a sanyaku rotation group goes kyujo.

Yes I used your database for that. I looked at the torikumi for each day of the Aki '81 basho to see who was in the MNI. I then looked at a tournament later in which Akebono, Musashimaru and Takanohana were all Yokozuna and all 3 of them rotated daily but of course that was well within the Heisei era. Thanks for the info clearing up the who gets assigned the YO duties.