themistyseas

A bit of a bind though, given the ichimon. It would be shocking if this new recruit were still in sumo by then, but the big issue within the ichimon is that there aren't any branch out candidates either incoming or on the horizon, so it appears the options for any other Nishikido recruits and Mitoryu would be extremely limited. Hakkaku is right around the corner and would be the obvious choice, although he's retiring at a similar time. With Hakkaku beya surely transitioning to Okinoumi around the same time, one wonders if Hokutofuji remains in the kyokai if it's not wiser for him to pitch up at Nishikido at some point (difficult to see his sumo style keeping him going another 5 years), help recruit some proper deshi of his own, help out any kids like this Kenshin fellow, and keep 4 heya in the ichimon. Obviously for a recruit like this, what happens in 5 years is probably the last thing on his mind. But if you were being scouted with the idea of dedicating your career to sumo, you'd probably want to have some idea of who your coach will be the for the majority of your career.

Nice to see Isenoumi with a new recruit, familial connections or otherwise. After Nishikido and Kataonami, Isenoumi has a frankly staggering coach to rikishi ratio (7 oyakata for 12 rikishi, of whom one is long term banzuke gai and a few others nearing retirement). Still, good to see new blood coming in that hasn't been absorbed from another heya (although the cynical take would be that with all those coaches you'd think they could get someone in that isn't related to an oyakata at least once a year). By comparison, Kasugano with the same volume of coaching staff, continues to bring in promising talent alongside regularly having 3+ sekitori.

Finding it hard to remember more downcast assessments than that from both the deshi and shisho upon a new recruit's joining up. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but the kid sounds like he's been using Shodai as his mental coach. Not sure if appropriate to invoke in this thread but I would definitely love to hear other such examples if anyone can remember any off hand.

TBH Ms5TD doesn't sound unreasonable in so much as it puts you nearer the promotion zone so that a 6-1 and in some cases a 5-2 (such as the basho just gone) gets you up without having to zensho your first time. Intriguing question. Naruto has been a good recruiter but seems to have an awfully difficult time keeping guys on the dohyo and from hitting the wall in makushita. Nishonoseki is building something intriguing in his progressive sumo world of wonder but I do wonder if the geography will eventually work against him with these types of recruits (probably already been proven wrong tho). Miyagino's pitch is probably that you get to learn from the best and also train with some of the best every day, such his been his recruitment. Also if he's able to get a few to sanyaku in the next couple years and build something like the Futagoyama/Musashigawa of 20-25 years ago it seems like it can be a huge scheduling advantage for those looking to win yusho.

Curious if those kyujo from jungyo are still able to show up and do a cut at a retirement ceremony, or if their kyujo precludes them from any kind of function if they are not able to carry out their duty as a rikishi? ex-Asahisho seems to be extremely well loved within the kyokai and rikishi community, and has a great personality. I do wonder though if his seat isn't extraordinarily hot given the fact he's borrowing the Kiriyama name and the ongoing issues of Takarafuji. In any case, I'm glad he was able to get this send off as a member of the kyokai and with lots of love from those available to give it.

That and he's also university educated which likely changes the calculus for him in terms of his personal decision making. While the number of college educated rikishi is obviously a small minority, one would think that there are more options and higher earning options available to them if they aren't looking or aren't able to join the Kyokai after they retire, especially if they feel the time is right at a younger age. While he's one guy with his own hopes and dreams, it will be intriguing to learn what he decides to do next. It would be an interesting data point (at least on a personal level) in terms of understanding how this generation of rikishi to have come out of university might assess their future "second life".

I'm a fan of her updates of course, but it's a community where people are constantly looking to blame someone or something and someone has to be always right and someone is always wrong. Despite the fact that sumo always has a winner and a loser, there is often grey area in the narrative. Case in point: the feelings that Abi may or may not have had on the dohyo in the aftermath of the Takayasu win. There are even folks on this thread people replying (including to your comment here) and saying that's not payback because fans were cheated. It can be both. It can also be neither. That is the beauty of the situation and of narrative. I tend to agree with you. If anyone needed a word of encouragement in their ear the day after, Takayasu's arguably got the best senpai in the business. It's remarkable that Kisenosato had almost double the runners-up tallies before his first yusho and some collapses from equally as incredible positions. Takayasu's obviously had a more up and down career and has suffered in terms of form and fitness since his buddy's collapse and retirement but - while his oyakata could be a bit of a wild card - he seems to have a good support group around him.

Not sure if this has been addressed elsewhere and apologies to all if it's (quasi) irrelevant, but this comment made me consider whether Senshuraku parties have returned yet for the heya. I think normally these do occur at the regional basho as a good chance for the regional supporters & groups to support (financially and otherwise) the various stables. Have to imagine if they are going ahead that the Minato beya senshuraku party would be a weird one this time out, to say the least...

Jonidan is just absolutely horrendous, yikes. Bit risky to drop this far back, but I'll take a flyer on someone who seems to be back in Jd60 Asashiyu

First time I've ever been ranked this high, so it's time to get jokey in an effort to push on some more Sd22 Toseiryu and Sd43 Takahashi

Is it just me or does it seem like with the post-COVID return of degeiko, there seems to be much more inter-ichimon degeiko going on? I might be wrong, but it felt like before the pandemic, this was really limited to Ozeki and Yokozuna privilege to go out and train with whomever they like. I don't know if anyone has the answer but I wonder what has brought these particular combinations about... the stables aren't even remotely geographically close to each other (nor is Tokiwayama near Takekuma where Kintamayama reported Takakeisho as having visited). I can understand that Meisei and Hoshoryu want to challenge themselves against rikishi of a similar level, is that all it is? But one would think it'd be much easier for Onosho to head over and visit Sadogatake (unless he's moved far away from his heya)! Arashio beya does seem to be very progressive and welcoming of rikishi, fans and also the oyakata's interaction with the media (ie. NHK & also Sumo Prime Time), which is a really nice development.

Slightly poor wording from me and I'll own that - let's try again: we have 105 names in circulation with a system that until recently, turned them over roughly every 30 years. Absolutely I agree the number of kabu was not at any point tied to the retirement age, but I do think the data points are useful, because the average age that a rikishi retires and the mandatory retirement age are important pieces of the conversation. Accidents or not - those data points inform about how many names on average will free up (some years maybe zero, some years maybe eight, but still there's always an average in and out). I don't know that I would say things were good before or are bad now, I think we're probably in the same place on that. We do however have to note that the maths have changed, which has a notable knock on effect. I think you just have to have a situation where there's continued employment through this system for the top names who can develop the future of the sport. It probably isn't an issue at all if retirement from active duty doesn't come with "get a name now or you're out forever." It's why I wonder whether the return of jun-toshiyori with a shorter grace period might help solve some issues. I take your point that that they might like to be more picky about who comes in, although the devil's advocate view is that it could also be a self preservation move designed for the interests of a few over the needs of the whole (we can't really know). It does feel a bit weird to me that they might be picky at this exact moment about who's coming in if you look strictly at their contributions on the dohyo, because of the 8 "retirement age" rikishi in the top division (from Chiyotairyu and older), all of them except Sadanoumi and possibly Chiyotairyu have careers that not only allow them to enter the kyokai but open their own heya - which a surprisingly large amount of current kyokai members do not possess. With the new emphasis on rikishi health and oyakata health drills before basho, it also seems like you might want more 40 year olds and fewer 67 year olds along the hanamichi (do sanyo do blue coat duty at basho? i've never seen it in person). But I accept that's not going to be anything they are thinking about. By notable I mostly meant people who qualify to take on an elder role, or even simply an ex-sekitori. Every basho we get a good number of retirements, but few if any are notable in the sense of any sumo achievements. If the Kyokai says "reached san'yaku once" is notable enough to qualify for a career extension as an elder, then that's good enough for me to say that Kotoyūki or Chiyootori had notable careers. Asahisho I'd agree is more of an edge case.

The problem we have mathematically is that the current set of 105 names was based on the names turning over roughly every 30 years based on whatever the average retirement age is for a rikishi (probably around 3.5 names a year becoming free, which frankly - based on gut feel only - seems pretty reasonable given that we get about that many notable names retiring each year). If it's every 35 years then you need to account for the extra names per year that need to change hands. There are probably a handful of sensible solutions that don't feel especially radical and wouldn't disturb the ecosystem or the culture of sumo too much: 1) cap the number of sanyo - don't they also do this with sewanin and wakaimonogashira? 2) lower the sanyo retirement age to 68 - three years should be enough to offer guidance and support to new shisho in an official capacity. you could soften this slightly by saying those who serve on the board of directors can remain until 70 (although it's less likely they're the ones that need to the additional income from remaining employed). 3) reinstate jun-toshiyori where a myoseki is unavailable and retiring rikishi meets a very high performance threshold (maybe it's sanyaku or 45+ as sekitori) to give them time to remain in the kyokai while they acquire a name 4) revive additional edo/meiji-era elder names for use as kabu - there seem to be a handful that would still maintain the history and traditions of sumo. you could issue 10 more on an as needed basis (but no more than 3-4 in a year) over the next 5 years and bring the total to 115 which wouldn't seem problematic in an era where everyone is working to 70. this would also keep the average of annually expiring names a little more consistent, and any additional stables that are able to be launched could help replenish the shrinking number of rikishi in the sport (given that a number of the current stables either rarely recruit or simply don't recruit). More radically you could also cap the number of oyakata in a heya which would set the cat amongst the pigeons a bit in terms of stock market activity - there is no sensible reason why Isenoumi beta, with one aging sekitori and ten rikishi of whom none are likely to even reach Juryo (apart from maybe Arauma), requires seven coaches (making Takashima's move even more baffling).

Bit of a shame they've not been able to PR this with a little more lead time. I think it's the kind of thing he definitely would be able to sell to the foreign sumo fan that's not going to be able to get tickets or afford to go to, say, Hakuho's event. With Japan seemingly opening up at long last, I bet he could probably sell a couple dozen extra tickets by roping in a certain popular secondary market ticketing site that caters to foreigners. I know this smacks of the usual "foreign sumo fans overstating their importance" but while intai-zumo is a popular ticket category for tourists, I think definitely 20-30 hardcore fans (SF people, bloggers, podcast folks, youtube folks, other fans) with "participate in danpatsushiki" on the bucket list would do it at this price point. If he's only expecting to gross ¥16.5M ($115K USD at current exchange rate) on the event anyway, minus costs of "a soft drink and a light meal" and whatever is needed to run it, seems like an additional ¥600K-800K might be welcome.

Just had a bit of a shock when browsing the DB: the sanyo-for-all policy could be felt a bit more intensely and further down the road. We've had several sanyo retirements this year, but right now the oldest member of the Kyokai (Minezaki/ex-Misugiiso) is 66, so assuming no early exits, there will be almost four full years before we see any openings pop up from the current crop of sanyo The problem with that is that in that same time period, NINE oyakata will be apparently eligible to become sanyo: Kagamiyama and Irumagawa in 2023, followed by Michinoku and Hanakago in 2024, Isegahama, Otake, Jinmaku, and Shibatayama in 2025 and Tokiwayama in 2026. Those who are stablemasters from that group already have their likely successor in the heya as an oyakata with the exception of Otake, Shibatayama and Tokiwayama, and none of those stables has an active rikishi who looks likely to hang up their mawashi to succeed them at that point. So there doesn't look like much chance of a succession like we saw recently at Arashio from any of those stables, which probably increases the likelihood of the shisho becoming sanyo internally (like Miyagino) or after a merger elsewhere (like Minezaki). Even under traditional circumstances, it's not sustainable to only have 2 names open up a year. I know it's unlikely, but I'm not sure what kind of carnage we're going to be looking at when you have the possibility of zero names becoming available for four more years? I also wonder if the Kyokai can financially sustain or politically enact growth to 110 members, for example.

Sd74e Kazekeno

Jd62w Suyama

I would absolutely pay money to an NSK subscription service (or Hiro Morita's new thing) to watch some version of this between basho Tamashoho's obviously too good to be involved in this, which is in some ways a shame as otherwise Tamawashi vs the rest of the heya would be a great YouTube series in its own right Loser has to bake the cakes for the winner

Aren't we all weird people that this is part of what makes sumo great, but it in some ways really is - the lineage of the names and the politics that have been involved for generations in being able to ascend to a prestigious name, or sometimes in fact any name! One missing piece of the puzzle - and one that lends a little bit more credibility to your hypothesis in fact - is that ex-Kaiki retired from active sanyo duty under the Tomozuna name before Kaisei's last basho. Presumably, if he was next in line, he'd have been next in line even if he hadn't dropped to Juryo (in a world where he could have posted the kind of kachikoshi scores down in Juryo that Okinoumi has been doing in makuuchi the last few years, getting one solid result every so often to extend his career by a further 6 months here or there, he may even have been in position to have acquired it and loaned it out to someone else). So it is a little odd on the face of it - but at the same time I do just have the feeling it's paperwork holding it up. Officially of course for the last 10 years or so the kyokai has brokered kabu trades, but I imagine that for guys who owned names for decades before that policy came into being, (like Kaiki who picked up his share over 24 years before the changes were made a decade ago) their exit conversation around the ROI for the transfer of their name is a little more complicated than it will be for the next generation, whose affairs will have been fully managed in house. I could be wrong, but these transfers due seem to be getting murky in other ways now that they're managed in-house (see: Toyonoshima saying he was "making payments" on a name he was later unable to acquire, well after the policy change was enacted).

The official listing on the kyokai's website has him listed above only the sanyo and below all of the other presumed borrowers, so I would imagine it's technically still on loan from Kaiki. Of course the wheels may be in motion for him to take the share fully, but I imagine that with the announcement coming when it did (immediately upon dropping from Juryo), there may yet be paperwork to sort out and presumably a deal to be made behind the scenes. Edited to add: worth pointing out as well that the Wikipedia page (at least in English) is a little lax on the updates as well: it's also missing another couple of borrowers (Izutsu and Sanoyama) and three of the sanyo haven't been relocated from their previous positions in the kyokai. So as ever, worth taking the crowd-sourced content with a few grains of dohyo salt (not unlike a message board? Haha!)

 Right, it's obvious when you think about it like that. So it would be fair to assume that cancelled tournaments are treated the same way? A pretty important cultural distinction is that sometimes we think about the basho as the end all and be all, and if we reframe it not as appearances on the dohyo but appearances on the banzuke, then it can be easier to digest and understand. As @Asashosakari rightly relates, the reason for the missed basho isn't necessarily relevant whether it's illness or injury or the crazy circumstances we see these days. If you view the banzuke as the record keeping artifact that it is for every basho, then it's easy to understand and relate that 60 times, Kaisei was listed among the makuuchi rikishi. It's also good to know that the banzuke itself is not a sumo-only concept - in fact if you check out Edo-era exhibits in museums around Japan, you may be able to see a listing in a very similar format and style for things like theatre performers.

The other unmentioned wrinkle is that Kaisei himself possesses exactly the number of top division basho required to branch out and open his own Tomozuna-beya. Whether he has the support group behind him or the desire to do that is another question, but it's an intriguing possibility for an Isegahama ichimon whose leadership may have a bit of a youth movement in the next few years.

A couple optimistic counter-points: It doesn't look like available kabu within an ichimon is much of a problem anymore, with names flying almost at will across families (the defections from the isegahama group over the last decade or so seemingly contributing an awful lot to this) Unless I'm mistaken, Kakuryu is the Tokitsukaze family's only Yokozuna since Kashiwado. And if I'm not mistaken, before Shodai the last Ozeki from the ichimon was Kirishima himself. Surely they are not going to let Kakuryu roll out of the kyokai after 5 years. But given the sanyo-for-all, it does present the question of who the makeweight might be in order to retain the former Yokozuna. Ex-Toyonoshima's seat getting hotter is pretty unfathomable - but if the bizarre Takashima move is actually to Isenoumi and not a typo, maybe that was designed to eventually free up the slot within the ichimon for Kakuryu?

Is it just me or is this extremely odd? Not that there haven't been a number of odd movements of various kabu across traditional ichimon lines in recent years, but with Kagamiyama reaching mandatory retirement age in 6 months, and the heya not really having anyone beyond Nishikigi waiting to assume a name, it's hard to understand the point of this. I know that Takashima is not a Miyagino lifer and was attached to a pair of heya which found their way into the Tokitsukaze ecosystem, but there doesn't appear to be any connection between him and Isenoumi-beya. It also doesn't appear that he's from the same part of the country as any of the other oyakata there. Additionally, Isenoumi-oyakata has to be one of the most well-supported shisho in the game in terms of the volume of support staff that he has (with only Tatekawa even being eligible to branch out, which seems unlikely). It does beg the question why, if he wasn't going to stay with Hakuho, Takashima didn't transfer to one of the stables in the ichimon that might have benefitted from another coach, or even Oitekaze beya which has no supporting coaches (although since he only spent 2 months with Oitekaze-oyakata before his move to Miyagino, maybe that's just not a match). Given the recent speculation in another thread on here about what it might take Hakuho (or Terunofuji) to re-establish the Isegahama ichimon as a more political force, and also the much discussed crunch of presumably needed names, moving Takashima into a heya where there doesn't - from an external perspective - appear to be a logical need seems really very bizarre, especially now that he has extended his employment. I wonder if the heya is just closer to his house, or if the kyokai just goofed and reported it as Isenoumi when they meant Isegahama (similar characters)?

Nice spot. Not necessarily, IMHO, as junior and more recently retired oyakata often participate in keiko anyway, so I think it's hard to take it as an indication of their future intentions one way or the other. I was once privileged to see the retired former Tenkaiho (who I think was still borrowing the then-active Kotoshogiku's myoseki) working out the younger rikishi at Onoe beya. So I think in the absence of any press coverage or youtube reporters snooping around the heya it could be both, or neither? If Kyokutaisei's situation is still under discussion or unresolved, there's probably little harm in seeing what he can do physically on his recovery from injury. One would think Kaisei's future would be easier to resolve as a very accomplished long time top division regular, but who knows. The increase (?) in sanyo uptake is gonna put all these guys in a crunch. Within the ichimon, the Takashima kabu also should have popped free within the last couple days at least as a loaner, provided he too did not take on the sanyo position.