Chiyonofuji hitting taiho's 32 ?

[Hoshifransu 0]

Well, that's a topic I already talked about a long time ago in the Sumo Game Forum but I'm still not convinced. Chiyonofuji won 31 tournaments in the past and Taiho's record is 32 tournaments ever won. I will always find very strange he retired too early, I think. To hit Taiho's 32 is a big challenge he could have won and every Yokozuna dreamed about. Some say he received pressures for a retirement in order not to beating the all time ever record. I don't know if this is the truth. I don't know the truth. Officially Chiyonofuji said he knew it was the moment to retire and that the rising of Takanohana was a sign he had to retire. Well, Chiyonofuji was still very fit, making very good records and with about 130 kilos he could have extended his career one year more at least. When you look at Terao who approaches the age of 39, it's a really strange retirement, I feel. :-0

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

The rumour indeed claims that Chiyonofuji was under severe pressure from the powers that be to not exceed Taiho's record of 32 yusho. This is believed to be because some (many?) of Chiyonofuji's yusho are said to be bought (yaocho). Then again, Taiho himself is said to have been honest (gachinko) only until his 20th yusho.

There is absolutely no way of knowing the actual truth. Only those involved know how everything went and I'm not counting on them to tell what is the truth in matter. Should it be anything else than is already told, that is. ;-)

[Hoshifransu 0]

Oh dear ... yaocho ... and the other topic about doping ...

Sumo tries to be like soccer or what ?! (if gyoji were corrupted too, that will be definitively like soccer !)

Well, I'm afraid we won't know the real truth. The only one possibility now is called Takanohana. He's still young enough and talented enough to extend that impressive record (but still not "top fit" at the moment) and that would be the best solution : Chiyonofuji could forget about it a bit and have no regrets ! :-/

[Manekineko 200]

Somehow I can't imagine Taka taking enough yusho to catch this record...

:-/

[Guest Kaikitsune]

And what on earth would have been the motivating factor for Chiyonofuji`s yaocho yushos? I very much doubt he would have been much less dominant without any bought bouts. Of course I haven`t seen enough of his bouts to form an opinion of the ways he won crucial bouts but still this seems so weird even as a thought. (As weird as Itai`s claims that he was payed a lot of money to throw a bout against Akebono and considering that Itai was not nearly as good as Akebono..well my logic fails to understand).

[Hoshifransu 0]

I'm not sure Takanohana couldn't catch 32. Have you already forgotten about him ? Taka is the boss and more, since Akebono's end of career ! Though his recovery problems worry his fans at the moment and it seems to be a real problem, but a 100 % fit Taka can catch 32 at least but fitness is a real problem in Sumo ... otherwise I don't imagine wrestlers as Kaio, Tochiazuma and both irregular Musashimaru and Kotomitsuki preventing him from beating that record. That's anarchy at the moment in Sumo. No chief. The real boss is Takanohana if he can come back, of course. That's what I think but 32 basho ever won is a big score !

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

I'm not sure Takanohana couldn't catch 32. Have you already forgotten about him ? Taka is the boss and more, since Akebono's end of career ! Though his recovery problems worry his fans at the moment and it seems to be a real problem, but a 100 % fit Taka can catch 32 at least but fitness is a real problem in Sumo ... otherwise I don't imagine wrestlers as Kaio, Tochiazuma and both irregular Musashimaru and Kotomitsuki preventing him from beating that record. That's anarchy at the moment in Sumo. No chief. The real boss is Takanohana if he can come back, of course. That's what I think but 32 basho ever won is a big score !

I don't agree Takanohana is even close to likely to hit 32 yusho.

First of all, he is far from the boss since Akebono quit. He and Musashimaru has gone even since Akebono quit, and even for some time before that.

Secondly, Takanohana is OLD, sumowise. While 29 is not normally considered old, Takanohana came up very early, and looking at other rikishi who has had similar careers, such as Taiho and Kitanoumi, such an early rise also means a quite abrupt ending. At this stage of the careers of Taiho and Kitanoumi, they had already won most of their yusho. Taiho only won 2 more after the age of 29, and Kitanoumi only one, despite them winning 32 and 24 respectively in total.

Furthermore, Takanohana has already for years been in the stage of his career where injuries become more common. He has had to mentally come back not only from them, but also from all the fuss around the Futagoyama-stable and Hanada-family that has been part of his life for all of his sumo career.

I think it's very doubtful Takanohana can take any yusho after his comeback, much less 10. It's not less likely (if less likely at all) that Musashimaru takes 10 more yusho. Takanohana simply isn't the dominating figure he was, and hasn't been for 4 or 5 years. I hope he can come back and take at least one more yusho, but it's highly doubtful he can beat Kitanoumi's 24 yusho. As far as I know, there are no examples (at least no modern) of rikishi coming back to being totally dominant, at the age of 29, after having had several rough years. It would surprise me greatly if Takanohana was the first.

[Hoshifransu 0]

Very good analysis.

[Hoshifransu 0]

Well, about Chiyonofuji, I've got an old video tape of the 1985 New York Madison Square Garden exhibition Tournament he won. And with some fights in "mepg" format I could have downloaded all around the web, I just can tell you this : he's the most amazing and exciting rikishi I ever watched. He was a mix of Asashoryu and Takanohana. He was so creative, so amazing, so quick as Asashoryu (and the same body as him, though Chiyonofuji was very muscular) and so confident and skillful as Takanohana. My respects to Takanohana but I feel him a bit boring in comparison with Chiyonofuji. Chiyonofuji impressed me when he managed to lift up opponents much heavier like the Ozeki Asashyo and his 205 kilos, or to be so cunning against others like Konishiki, the all time heaviest wrestlers. I don't know his statistics but Chiyonofuji used a lot of techniques to overcome. He was really entertaining and he was a very good performer too to execute the final bow-twirling ceremony. In a word, he was a great Yokozuna. :-/

[Hoshifransu 0]

To complete what I've just told, I give you some excerpts of a magnificient book I bought some weeks ago called "Dynamic Sumo" with texts by Clyde Newton and beautiful photographies by Gerald G.Toff published by Kodansha in 1994 (for a prize of 30$) that I advice to every fans. It is said about Chiyonofuji : "Muscular, lanky Chiyonofuji was promoted to yokozuna in 1981. Meanwhile three other yokozuna - Mienoumi, Wajima and Wakanohana II - retired. The once powerful Kitanoumi went into a steady decline and retired in January 1985, after achieving his objective of competing in the new and ultramodern Kokugikan that had been completed the year before. Chiyonofuji reached his prime only after he turned thirty in 1985. Though a relative lightweight at about 264 pounds (120 kilograms), he possessed extraordinary strength, speed and skill. Despite his advancing age, Chiyo achieved fifty-three consecutive wins in 1988, losing to fellow Yokozuna Onokuni on the final day of the November 1988 tournament, in what was to be the last bout fought during the Showa period. Chiyonofuji's dominance of the sport continued into the reign of the current emperor (which started in 1989). He won thirty-one Yusho - just one shy of Taiho's record, but against less impressive opposition. He was approaching his thirty-six birthday when he was upset by eighteen-year-old maegashira Takahanada (now Takanohana) in May 1991. Two days later, after losing another bout to komusubi Takatoriki, Chiyonofuji retired."

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

I don't know his statistics but Chiyonofuji used a lot of techniques to overcome. He was really entertaining and he was a very good performer too to execute the final bow-twirling ceremony. In a word, he was a great Yokozuna. :-/

You mean Chiyonofuji did the yumitori-shiki as well?!? :-0

Once or few times during an exhibition tournament, I guess? Really?!?

I'd really like to see a list of those who have done yumitori-shiki. Does anyone have one? All I know is that Shinmei was preceded by Wakanohana's tsukebito Wakakaze and he in turn by Takamiwaka (of Azumazeki?). I guess Tomoefuji was before him,

In late 1950's maegashira Ohtayama was considered to be an exceptionally good yumitori-shiki performer. He died on November 11th, 1999. He was Nishikido Oyakata until 1989 when he retired from Kyokai and became a chanko restaurant owner.

I believe only Ohtayama & Tomoefuji among the bow-twirlers have reached makuuchi. The job - honourable as it is - still has an aura of jinx around it.

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

I'd really like to see a list of those who have done yumitori-shiki. Does anyone have one? All I know is that Shinmei was preceded by Wakanohana's tsukebito Wakakaze and he in turn by Takamiwaka (of Azumazeki?). I guess Tomoefuji was before him,

I asked for such a list on the Sumo Maling list a couple of years ago, but didn't get any help. First, I think there must have been someone between Tomoefuji and Takamiwaka. Except Otayama, I don't think there are anyone who have done the yumitori-shiki while actually ranked in Makunouchi and Takamiwaka was chosen because of Akebono, as I understand it. Since Tomoefuji reached Makunouchi 1991.01 and Akebono didn't make Yokozuna until 1993.01, there seem to be space in between for at least one more performer. I'll give you what I have of the list:

Otayama (Takasago): 1952-(1959?) [High rank M20]

Taikozan (?): ?-1973.?

Itakura (Hanakago): 1973.11-1975.03 [later M11 Daigo]

Edonohana (Mihogaseki): 1975.07-1982.07

Tomoefuji (Kokonoe): 1989.?-1990.? [High rank Komusubi] (Edit: thanks Hoshifransu)

Hokutoasahi(?) (Oshima): ?-? (Edit)

Takamiwaka (Azumazeki): ?-?

Wakakaze (Futagoyama): 1994.(11?)-2000.01

Shinmei (Musashigawa): 2000.03-(2002.03) [last basho actually doing it 2002.01)

Takanoumi (Futagoyama): 2002.03 (as stand-in for Shinmei)

Musashifuji (Musashigawa) 2002.05-

Any help at all would be appreciated!

I believe only Ohtayama & Tomoefuji among the bow-twirlers have reached makuuchi. The job - honourable as it is - still has an aura of jinx around it.

As you see, Daigo also managed to reach Makunouchi after doing the yumitori-shiki.

I think the jinx-talk is a bit ridiculous, really (but most talk of jinxes are of course...). The yumitori-shiki rikishi are chosen among lower-rankers with years of sumo experience. It's quite natural they often happen to never reach the top ranks, simply because most who have spent years in the lower ranks won't...

Hm. Maybe this should be moved to another topic???

[Hoshifransu 0]

Sorry, sorry, sorry, I'm confused. I admired Chiyonofuji so much that I've just talked a nonsense !

I was doubtful and I've just finished watching again the end of this video I hadn't watch for a long time, and in my memory, it was Chiyonofuji, in fact it's not him who did the yumitori-shiki but a wrestler really looking like him (!) Sorry, I talked a nonsense. The Madison Square Garden exhibition lasted 3 days with a big audience by American people watching it and was organized with at the end of each of the three days semi-finals and a final for each day where Chiyonofuji won the first one and the third one, beating Hokutenyu (160 kilos) in a magnificient final clash. (Asashyo winning the second one)

About the Bow-Twirling Ceremony, I searched in my book and read this very interesting :

" Since January 1952, this ceremony has closed each day of every official tournament. Rikishi who perform the yumitori-shiki (the bow-twirling ceremony) are usually ranked at makushita or below, and from the heya of a current yokozuna. Rikishi assigned this role are said to be among the less promising ; few have gone beyond the juryo. However, Tomoefuji, who performed the ceremony in 1989-90, has gone as far as komusubi."

[Hoshifransu 0]

Sorry again for my confusion above.

So for Komusubi Tomoefuji you can complete your stats with 1989-1990, for the others I really don't know but it's already very impressive you've got such precious and rare informations. I found this interesting excerpt too :

"The yumitori-shiki, a ceremony that follows the last bout held on each day of both official and exhibition tournaments, is generally said to have originated in the sixteenth century. It is certain that nearly two hundred years later Tanikaze, the greater yokozuna of this time, was presented with a bow by shogun Tokugawa Ienari at a special sumo exhibition performed in the ruler's presence. Tanikaze twirled the bow on the dohyo, and the ceremony has been retained ever since." :-/

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

I think the jinx-talk is a bit ridiculous, really (but most talk of jinxes are of course...). The yumitori-shiki rikishi are chosen among lower-rankers with years of sumo experience. It's quite natural they often happen to never reach the top ranks, simply because most who have spent years in the lower ranks won't...

Hm. Maybe this should be moved to another topic???

I'll move this to a new topic just for yumitori-shiki if this thread still goes longer but for now I can't resist reminding what happened to poor Tomoefuji who was thought to have laid the jinx talk to rest when he was promoted to komusubi.

I'll cite here straight from the Sumo Mailing List archives at www.banzuke.com where Peter J. Parbrook wrote in April 14th, 1997:

The Yumitori-shiki is regarded by many rikishi as being an unlucky

job as there is a superstion that those who do it will never make

sekitori.  I remember reading about Tomoefuji in SumoWorld when he

made Shinsanyaku and how this put the superstition to rest.

Unfortuneately directly after the article Tomoefuji was involved in

a practice dohyo incident with Shin-Ozeki Akebono just before the

basho where he was to make his debut at Komusubi, meaning that

Akebono missed his first basho at Ozeki and made his Ozeki debut as

kadoban. As a new Komusubi tomoefuji got injured on the first or second day

and missed most of the tournament.  Since then Tomoefuji made rapid

downward progress back to Makushita where he languishes today

(unless he has retired..?) So the curse seems to have got him in the

end..... Apart from Tomoefuji I believe very few Yumitori-shiki

rikishi have made it to sekitori.

I don't intend this to be taken seriously but still... :-/

Thanks a lot anyway for the list of the names you know, Yubi! Much appreciated! (Aww...)

[Tony 16]

Chiyonofuji is the best rikishi of every time! I don't believe that used yaocho for win his 31 yusho.

It's true who he retired quickly.But, he was 35, almost 36 (once month later ). In modern sumo, very few yokozuna continued after their 32 years. Chiyonofuji had a exceptionnal longevity. Furthermore, in Natsu basho 1991, I think he suffered right leg ( watch the bouts against Takahanada and Takatoriki ).

And Chiyonofuji's style was so impressive, so perfect, what he needn't yaocho.Thank you Chiyonofuji for all these wonderful moments!