Hakuho intai raw overview

[Akinomaki]

a few select pics

new in Japan

o o

new in sumo

o

new juryo

o

new in makuuchi

o o

first yusho

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yokozuna

o o

to the car from Miyagino-beya to the intai press conference

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records

o o o o o o o o o o o o o o

the dump

o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o  o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o

Edited October 3, 2021 by Akinomaki

[code_number3]

I thought Hakuho will play his last honbasho match with huge salt throw (last time was vs Enho in 2020). Thinking about that for some time.

[sumojoann]

I've just spent the last hour closely examining these great photos.  Thank you so much, Akinomaki!

[hakutorizakura]

Wonderful set.

But I'm terrible at recognizing people in their younger pictures. So which one is him? 

[Gurowake]

I don't understand the record list that's titled "一人横綱優勝".  While the "yokozuna yusho" part at the end is fairly clear, I don't get the sense that 一人 is taking here such that Hakuho has 19 of them.  The best I can figure is that it means "leading from beginning to end", as there are 16 zensho, and exactly 3 others where he necessarily had to be in the lead the whole time (losing his last 1 or 2 matches after winning 14 or 13 respectively), but I would expect there to be more than just those where he led the entire time.  It could mean precisely those where he won consecutively up to some point, then lost the rest, and won the yusho, but I don't see why that would be interesting.  I can't come up with anything that seems to make much sense.  I hope someone with more experience with these kinds of record listings can tell me what's going on here.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Gurowake

[Kamitsuumi]

1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

I don't understand the record list that's titled "一人横綱優勝".  While the "yokozuna yusho" part at the end is fairly clear, I don't get the sense that 一人 is taking here such that Hakuho has 19 of them.  The best I can figure is that it means "leading from beginning to end", as there are 16 zensho, and exactly 3 others where he necessarily had to be in the lead the whole time (losing his last 1 or 2 matches after winning 14 or 13 respectively), but I would expect there to be more than just those where he led the entire time.  It could mean precisely those where he won consecutively up to some point, then lost the rest, and won the yusho, but I don't see why that would be interesting.  I can't come up with anything that seems to make much sense.  I hope someone with more experience with these kinds of record listings can tell me what's going on here.

You are parsing it incorrectly. 一人横綱 means "lone yokozuna".

[Gurowake]

36 minutes ago, Kamitsuumi said:

You are parsing it incorrectly. 一人横綱 means "lone yokozuna".

I considered that possibility, but I don't see where he gets 19 of those unless it's something other than only Yokozuna on the banzuke, which doesn't fit - he has less than 19 yusho in that case.  Only Yokozuna not kyujo from the start I haven't looked into, but I don't see the significance of it.  I don't see the significance of him being the only Yokozuna on the banzuke either, but that was at least easy to check since I knew what time periods to look at - going for only Yokozuna in from the start would require looking at each individual tournament' to see if it met the criteria.  I had already looked at a lot of other things it might mean, and wasn't inclined to go digging any further without asking to see if anyone else knew what it meant.

As to significance, I mean, what does being the only Yokozuna on the dohyo have to do with anything with respect to greatness?  Shouldn't the more relevant statistic for greatness be most Yusho with another Yokozuna finishing the tournament? Neither is particularly meaningful compared to all the other ones that were listed.  Yes, it's a possible statistic, but I don't see what value it has.  I'm not Japanese though, so maybe there's something I'm missing.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Gurowake

[Akinomaki]

9 hours ago, hakutorizakura said:

 I'm terrible at recognizing people in their younger pictures. So which one is him? 

One was wrong, a Myogiryu pic, I removed it.

Hakuho is on the left

below

 

[sumojoann]

 

What about this pic?  Is that Hakuho front center?  It doesn't quite look like him.

[Akinomaki]

19 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

What about this pic?  Is that Hakuho front center?  It doesn't quite look like him.

3 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

One was wrong, a Myogiryu pic, I removed it.

that was the wrong one

[Amamaniac]

19 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Who is that accompanying Hakuho when he was promoted to Yokozuna?  Doesn't seem to be Miyagino Oyakata!

[sumojoann]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

that was the wrong one

The pic I asked about is still up.  It's about halfway down on the right side of my screen.  (A few of the pics you posted were posted twice.  I think that might be the case here.  The duplicate just needs to be removed).  Thanks.

Edit:  The wrong pic is located sort of to the RIGHT of a pic of Hakuho wearing a red/black yukata shaking the hand of a woman who's wearing a black top and grey skirt.  The pic I have just described is located on the LEFT side of the screen.  The pic DIRECTLY to the LEFT of the wrong pic & DIRECTLY BELOW the Hakuho red/black yukata pic shows Hakuho in the ring with a Gyoji wearing a BLUE outfit.  I hope this will help you find it.

Edited October 3, 2021 by sumojoann

[yohcun]

6 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Who is that accompanying Hakuho when he was promoted to Yokozuna?  Doesn't seem to be Miyagino Oyakata!

Kanechika, that oyakata who married into the job, ousted the incumbent Miyagino, rarely attended keiko, and eventually got fired after being arrested for assault.

[Akinomaki]

18 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

The pic I asked about is still up.  It's about halfway down on the right side of my screen.  (A few of the pics you posted were posted twice.  I think that might be the case here.  The duplicate just needs to be removed).  Thanks.

Edit:  The wrong pic is located close to the RIGHT of a pic of Hakuho wearing a red/black yukata shaking the hand of a woman who's wearing a black top and grey skirt.  The pic I have just described is located on the LEFT side of the screen.  I hope this will help you find it.

Thanks, I had only removed it from the select pics, not from the dump

[Akinomaki]

25 minutes ago, yohcun said:

37 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Who is that accompanying Hakuho when he was promoted to Yokozuna?  Doesn't seem to be Miyagino Oyakata!

Kanechika, that oyakata who married into the job, ousted the incumbent Miyagino, rarely attended keiko, and eventually got fired after being arrested for assault.

Yeah, managed to be Miyagino-oyakata just at the moment when the one who raised Hakuho should have had his big moment

Edit: actually Kanechika took over shortly after Hakuho entered makuuchi, also at ozeki promotion he had the imposter being by his side - all the time the present Miyagino took care of Hakuho and everybody knew it, Kanechika only spent money http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Kabu.aspx?kabu=51

Edited October 3, 2021 by Akinomaki

[Kamitsuumi]

7 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I considered that possibility, but I don't see where he gets 19 of those unless it's something other than only Yokozuna on the banzuke, which doesn't fit - he has less than 19 yusho in that case.  Only Yokozuna not kyujo from the start I haven't looked into, but I don't see the significance of it.  I don't see the significance of him being the only Yokozuna on the banzuke either, but that was at least easy to check since I knew what time periods to look at - going for only Yokozuna in from the start would require looking at each individual tournament' to see if it met the criteria.  I had already looked at a lot of other things it might mean, and wasn't inclined to go digging any further without asking to see if anyone else knew what it meant.

As to significance, I mean, what does being the only Yokozuna on the dohyo have to do with anything with respect to greatness?  Shouldn't the more relevant statistic for greatness be most Yusho with another Yokozuna finishing the tournament? Neither is particularly meaningful compared to all the other ones that were listed.  Yes, it's a possible statistic, but I don't see what value it has.  I'm not Japanese though, so maybe there's something I'm missing.

Yeah, I agree with the sentiment. It actually seems to be number of yusho where other yokozuna (if any) were kyujo by day 15. I queried for all yusho where Hakuho did not face a yokozuna on day 15: http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&day=15&shikona1=Hakuho&rank1=Y&y1=on&rank2=O-M

[Seiyashi]

56 minutes ago, Kamitsuumi said:

8 hours ago, Gurowake said:

As to significance, I mean, what does being the only Yokozuna on the dohyo have to do with anything with respect to greatness?  Shouldn't the more relevant statistic for greatness be most Yusho with another Yokozuna finishing the tournament? Neither is particularly meaningful compared to all the other ones that were listed.  Yes, it's a possible statistic, but I don't see what value it has.  I'm not Japanese though, so maybe there's something I'm missing.

Yeah, I agree with the sentiment. It actually seems to be number of yusho where other yokozuna (if any) were kyujo by day 15. I queried for all yusho where Hakuho did not face a yokozuna on day 15: http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&day=15&shikona1=Hakuho&rank1=Y&y1=on&rank2=O-M

That statistic's value only becomes apparent if you bear in mind two other metrics: the number of yusho won, and another, not provided, metric: number of basho without another yokozuna finishing (using Kamitsuumi's query). For the yokozuna mentioned on that list:

• Hakuho: 19/26, 73%
• Asashoryu: 18/24, 75%
• Chiyonofuji: 12/26, 46%
• Taiho: 4/11, 36%
• Kitanoumi: 4/13, 30% 
• Akebono: 4/12, 33%

Since a yokozuna is always expected to be the front runner for a basho, for any basho in which only one yokozuna makes it to day 15, that yokozuna is expected to win the yusho, period. In this respect, Hakuho and Asashoryu are most reliable, as they do it 3/4 of the time that they are that sole yokozuna. Even Chiyonofuji only managed <50%.

This is actually also one stat which the yokozuna's own kyujo doesn't dilute his own results, as by definition he cannot be in contention in a basho for which he is kyujo. Tail-end career fades, at least with another yokozuna present, also don't dilute this too much.

So all in, these numbers basically roughly quantify how truly dominant a yokozuna is against non-yokozuna opponents, or how often he makes good on the default presumption that he is expected to win the yusho - in short, his reliability without supposed competition. When another yokozuna is in the mix, any of them winning is fine, but when there's only one yokozuna, that yokozuna ought to be taking the yusho.

Looking at the other yokozuna on that list, surprisingly Taiho has a pretty bad percentage despite having more yusho than Chiyonofuji, which seems to suggest that Taiho benefited in some part from Kashiwado gatekeeping opponents for him. And Akebono's stat I suspect underestimates his true strength, considering that he was fighting against yokozuna-calibre ozeki in the form of Musashimaru, Takanohana, and Wakanohana.

One last note on Kamitsuumi's query: it returns 16 results for Chiyonofuji. However, 4 of them were when Hokutoumi was active and wouldn't fight Chiyonofuji because of the do-beya rule, resulting in the adjusted 12 yusho that we see in Nikkan's stat above.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Amamaniac]

34 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

• Hakuho: 19/26, 73%
• Asashoryu: 18/24, 75%
• Chiyonofuji: 12/26, 46%
• Taiho: 4/11, 36%
• Kitanoumi: 4/13, 30% 
• Akebono: 4/12, 33%

Interesting list.  If we are considering domination against non-Yokozuna opponents, then Asashoryu deserves a little (just a little) more praise than Hakuho.  Like you, I was surprised by the poor record in that regard posted by Taiho...  Had he been as dominant when being the lone Yokozuna as he was when having to fight other Yokozunas, he could well have increased his championship total by, say, another 4 yusho!

Edited October 3, 2021 by Amamaniac

[Seiyashi]

3 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Interesting list.  If we are considering domination against non-Yokozuna opponents, then Asashoryu deserves a little (just a little) more praise than Hakuho.  What surprises me is the poor record in that regard posted by Taiho...

The interesting omission from this list, considering his era mate is here, is Takanohana, who managed an absolutely miserly 1/8. And no, that 1 basho was without his brother at yokozuna. That does sort of reinforce, however, that the top end of the banzuke in the 90s' was perhaps more competitive than the sanyaku from 2000s onwards.

[Gurowake]

54 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

That does sort of reinforce, however, that the top end of the banzuke in the 90s' was perhaps more competitive than the sanyaku from 2000s onwards

Well, the fact that three separate Yokozuna who were active at roughly identical times all got at least 10 yusho suggests that at very least there was less disparity in the quality of Yokozuna compared to Hakuho, and how much more dominant Hakuho was that he co-existed with 3 (and now 4 sorta) others who made Yokozuna, and still managed to win the vast majority of the Yusho.  I really don't like the idea that Hakuho won so many yusho because of weak competition, because if you want to see what weak competition looks like, just look at the current banzuke.  With 3 other eventual Yokozuna during the bulk of his competitive years, along with Asashoryu at the beginning of his career, there clearly was a lot of competition.  If Terunofuji manages 40 straight yusho now to break Hakuho's record while there are no other Yokozuna promoted and very few quality Ozeki, that would be a fair place to say the competition was weak.  Similarly, one could point to Asashoryu's time as Yokozuna as one of weak competition until Hakuho came along.  But Hakuho having weak competition seems just plain wrong

[Seiyashi]

1 minute ago, Gurowake said:

Well, the fact that three separate Yokozuna who were active at roughly identical times all got at least 10 yusho suggests that at very least there was less disparity in the quality of Yokozuna compared to Hakuho, and how much more dominant Hakuho was that he co-existed with 3 (and now 4 sorta) others who made Yokozuna, and still managed to win the vast majority of the Yusho.  I really don't like the idea that Hakuho won so many yusho because of weak competition, because if you want to see what weak competition looks like, just look at the current banzuke.  With 3 other eventual Yokozuna during the bulk of his competitive years, along with Asashoryu at the beginning of his career, there clearly was a lot of competition.  If Terunofuji manages 40 straight yusho now to break Hakuho's record while there are no other Yokozuna promoted and very few quality Ozeki, that would be a fair place to say the competition was weak.  Similarly, one could point to Asashoryu's time as Yokozuna as one of weak competition until Hakuho came along.  But Hakuho having weak competition seems just plain wrong

Well, strength is relative, and so is a statement about quality or parity of competition. IMO any of Hakuho's co-yokozuna could have been a dai yokozuna in any other age. But Hakuho being so strong means the competition looks way weak in comparison to him. That indicator of strength is of relative strength to the rest of the banzuke rather than an absolute statement about the power of rikishi in question. In contrast, Akebono and the Hanada Brothers (sounds like a bad band name, but eh) were much more closely matched, not to mention the presence of other strong ozeki like Musashimaru, Musoyama, and Takanonami.

That disparity might have led to some statements by famously grumpy ex rikishi about Hakuho not getting as much yusho in other era, but it's the wrong way round - he would have eaten up the competition in those eras too, probably.

[Reonito]

5 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

That statistic's value only becomes apparent if you bear in mind two other metrics: the number of yusho won, and another, not provided, metric: number of basho without another yokozuna finishing (using Kamitsuumi's query).

At Kyushu 2016, Hakuho, Harumafuji, and Kakuryu all finished, with Kakuryu taking a 14-1 yusho and the other two finishing 11-4. Hakuho did not face either yokozuna on day 15 because he was ranked Y2e and so faced O1e Goeido, with the other two yokozuna facing off. I believe this query misses it (and potentially other basho like it, though this is one of only 3 times Hakuho was Y2).

Edited October 3, 2021 by Reonito

[TakanohanaFan]

7 hours ago, yohcun said:

Kanechika, that oyakata who married into the job, ousted the incumbent Miyagino, rarely attended keiko, and eventually got fired after being arrested for assault.

I remembered he was fired for match fixing but apparently he only lost stablemaster position for it and was fired for assault later.

[Seiyashi]

55 minutes ago, TakanohanaFan said:

I remembered he was fired for match fixing but apparently he only lost stablemaster position for it and was fired for assault later.

He managed to claim that he was discussing a hypothetical situation or talking nonsense, which saved his job as an oyakata but not as shisho.

[TakanohanaFan]

2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

He managed to claim that he was discussing a hypothetical situation or talking nonsense, which saved his job as an oyakata but not as shisho.

Boo, he clearly was buying matches. Apparently other oyakata were against that.