Kyushu 2021 discussion

[Tigerboy1966]

12 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

While we are losing one of the active brother combos in Grand Sumo (perhaps the most colourful of the bunch), there is some good news on the brothers-in-mawashi front.  No doubt, some keen-eyed Forum member has already mentioned the fact that come January, Wakamotoharu (28) will be joining his younger brother, Wakatakakage (26) in the Top Division!  Sadly, the eldest of the three Shimida brothers, Kitaharima (35), is languishing down in Makushita.  Wakamotoharu has looked good this tournament.  Let's see if he has the necessary skill and will to stay there...

I'm afraid you've gotten some siblings mixed up - the oldest Onami brother is Wakatakamoto, now 29 but as a fan specifically of his I still harbour hopes that he'll reach Juryo someday.

Kitaharima does indeed have a younger brother, Tatsunoumi.

For future reference:

In jonokuchi this time we had a pair of brothers in Byakuen (aged 16) and Gaia (15). They both look like they turned up on a day trip from junior high and blagged their way into a match, but both have great fighting spirit and decent technique. I can't see either of them making sekitori but they will be interesting to follow.

[Tigerboy1966]

6 hours ago, Kashunowaka said:

6 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

In terms of relative competition, not any less impressive: this year, the next best win total is Ura's 59 (?!) and even Abi, who spent 3 basho as toriteki, is on the short list of 50 wins and above (the other two are Shodai and Mitakeumi, with 52 and 54 wins each). He's head, shoulders, and pecs above his competition.

Surely we only count makuuchi in this comparison, which leaves Ura and Abi at 27 and 12 wins respectively.

I only count makunouchi wins on my rankings.

The only ones to achieve an annual KK (46 wins) are:

76: Terunofuji

54: Mitakeumi

52: Shodai

49: Daieisho

48: Ichinojo, Meisei

47: Takanosho

Takakeisho, Hoshoryu and Takayasu are on 45 and need to win on Sunday to turn "Dark Blue 1" on my little spreadsheet.

[Sue]

On 26/11/2021 at 05:07, Taliesin said:

In that case, why not throw Shodai at Abi?

He's kind of heavy, and not easy to throw very far.

[Amamaniac]

1 hour ago, rokudenashi said:

To briefly return to the subject of Takanoshō's questionable eligibility for a shukunshō - to his credit he has beaten 3 san'yaku in this tournament (Shōdai, Meisei, Kiribayama), whereas Daieishō only managed one other san'yaku victory (Meisei) outside of his kinboshi. Of course the kinboshi comes with far more significance than beating an Ōzeki.

Time to go check the historical precedents... and having done so, based on the past few years, every hiramaku shukunshō recipient did indeed defeat a yokozuna, which Takanoshō has not accomplished. So I'm now inclined to believe he won't get it, even with an 11-4. 

1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

I won't pretend to understand the subtle meanings associated with these prizes, but if Abi didn't display Fighting Spirit this basho, maybe they should call it something else.

Indeed. He has fought fiercely this basho, which rather conveniently matches the description of the prize (敢然と闘う), doesn't it!

For what it's worth, Wakanohana III predicated on the Abema TV broadcast that:

the kantosho will go to Abi,

the ginosho to Ura,

and no one will get the shukunsho.  

Let's see if his sansho predicting ability is better than his yusho predicting ability.

[hakutorizakura]

2 hours ago, Adil said:

This is the context: He was breaking down Teru's bout with Abi, and he spoke about how Teru used his legs (and then one leg only) at the tawara to avoid being pushed out. He then remarked that this is something that we don't get to see from Japanese rikishi these days, and he followed that by saying that Teru's style is the most "Japanese" among the Mongolian yokozuna.

I thought he was talking about dame-oshi, kachiage, calling for monoii, and all that, but no  But let's see after 15 more yusho or so... I've got a feeling that we're entering another era of 1-rikishi dominance, after those exciting few years where the yusho was always free for all.

For those who have been following sumo long enough, did you see it coming that uncle Asa was going to be challenged by Hakuho, and then Hakuho by Harumafuji?

Otsukaresamadeshita Chiyooooootori  Is injury the main/sole reason of his intai?

 

[hakutorizakura]

25 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

For what it's worth, Wakanohana III predicated on the Abema TV broadcast that:

the kantosho will go to Abi,

the ginosho to Ura,

and no one will get the shukunsho.  

Let's see if his sansho predicting ability is better than his yusho predicting ability.

And he will get hakuhosho if he got it all correct!

[Ripe]

7 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

And even if you take away the hypothetical losses against Hakuho, breaching 70 is still an impressive achievement. Only 30 rikishi have ever scored more than 70 wins in a calendar year: most of them are yokozuna although the notable exceptions are Kotokaze, Takanonami, and Wakashimazu. Kakuryu only managed it once in his career, in his promotion year in 2014 with 71 wins, and Harumafuji and Kisenosato never managed it at all.

If sorted by order, then Terunofuji is either joint 19th or joint 26th (depending on whether he wins tomorrow) all time for wins in a calendar year. If he loses to Hakuho for 72-73 then he's still either joint 47th or 41st, around where previous luminaries like Terukuni, Kitanofuji, Futabayama and Kitanoumi have landed. Quite frankly, Terunofuji with this one calendar year has managed to drag himself up to par - at least as far as records are concerned - with a lot of strongish above-average yokozuna of the past, and that's before taking into account the massive achievement that is rehabilitating himself back from Jonidan.

Only 25 of those 30 rikishi managed to score 70 wins in a calendar year. Four of the other five (Futabayama, Terukuni, Akinoumi, Haguroyama) never fought in a 6 basho per year era while 5th (Kagamisato) retired in 1958...

[WAKATAKE]

6 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Wasn't it being the other way round what motivated Chiyomaru to become sekitori himself, too?

In any case, Chiyootori's retirement means the NSK is technically at its full complement of 105 oyakata again (104 regular kabu + Kakuryu: Nishikijima is still vacant from the fallout over the Asanoyama affair). It's not easy to find out when was the last time this was the case though, as there were a good number of active rikishi holding on to vacant kabu, but even before Magaki becoming vacant after the Tokitsukaze affair, there were already a number of vacant kabu. My guess is at least the first time in two or so years.

Only two sanyo positions will be opening up for 2022 also:

Oshima (June)
Oyama (October)

[Tigerboy1966]

1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

For what it's worth, Wakanohana III predicated on the Abema TV broadcast that:

the kantosho will go to Abi,

the ginosho to Ura,

and no one will get the shukunsho.  

Let's see if his sansho predicting ability is better than his yusho predicting ability. 

Having ruminated and cogitated (both still legal in England), I agree with Wakanohana's prediction as to where the sansho are likely to go. BUT...

If I was in charge, I would give the gino-sho to Chiyoshoma, who has produced a couple of sublime throws and is probably the best technical wrestler I've seen this time around. It would also be nice to see a prize tossed in the direction of Hidenoumi, who does very solid, intelligent, correct sumo. Akua isn't half bad but his judo throws don't work as well in makuuchi as they do in juryo.

I may be in a vanishingly small minority, but I am starting to find Ura annoying. Lots of gimmicky, flashy stuff but little in the way of technically correct sumo. And he looks so damn pleased with himself. And there have been a few bouts in which his opponents have been... how can I put it tactfully... less than entirely antagonistic.

[Seiyashi]

3 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

I may be in a vanishingly small minority, but I am starting to find Ura annoying. Lots of gimmicky, flashy stuff but little in the way of technically correct sumo. And he looks so damn pleased with himself. And there have been a few bouts in which his opponents have been... how can I put it tactfully... less than entirely antagonistic.

Hear, hear. Although I'm keen to hear your definition of correct sumo seeing as the other recipient of that epithet is Hidenoumi, of all people.

Chiyoshoma definitely is underrated these past few basho, though.

[Rocks]

13 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

I may be in a vanishingly small minority, but I am starting to find Ura annoying. Lots of gimmicky, flashy stuff but little in the way of technically correct sumo. And he looks so damn pleased with himself. And there have been a few bouts in which his opponents have been... how can I put it tactfully... less than entirely antagonistic.

I would agree, at least for this basho. I have been a fan usually but despite the excellent record this basho he wasn't impressive to me. They don't give Sansho for guys with his history going 11-4 but I would say Takansoho as far more impressive than Ura this basho and deserves a Sansho more if he beats Abi. 

Congrats to Terunofuji on a well deserved Yusho although I have a sneaking suspicion he won't get that Zensho. 

[Tigerboy1966]

45 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Hear, hear. Although I'm keen to hear your definition of correct sumo seeing as the other recipient of that epithet is Hidenoumi, of all people.

He is one of those wrestlers who just does everything well without being outstanding at any particular aspect of the game. And me and Hidenoumi have history: let me explain... When I got back into sumo in late 2014 it seemed as though the newcomers to the top division like Ichinojo and Terunofuji were battering all and sundry, so I kept my eye out for the next promotees. Hidenoumi and Seiro made their maku'uchi debuts at Nagoya 2015 and I was expecting great things from them, especially Seiro as his name meant "blue wolf", which was cool, and he was Mongolian and, and, and... I was 49 years old at the time but I was a sumo teenager. Anyway, neither of them cut much ice in makuuchi, but I followed their future endeavours with interest. Hidenoumi kept popping up into the top division and dropping back again. You had to feel for him as his more charismatic little brother raced ahead and gathered up the attention. So when Hidenoumi finally established himself as a solid maegashira this year I was, as they say, well pleased. And before anyone asks, yes I do have a younger brother who is slimmer, better looking and more financially successful than me.

[Reonito]

12 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Moot, considering Takanosho is now 10-4 and both komusubi are 5-9. Daieisho and Wakatakakage at both 7-7 still need to win tomorrow to assume the two komusubi spots, barring some shenanigans from Ura, Tamawashi, or even Abi.

I think Takanosho is now a lock for West Sekiwake. For the 2 komusbi slots, the order is Meisei W, Daieisho W, Wakatakakage W, Ura W, Tamawashi W, Ura L, Endo W, Tamawashi L. Endo with a win might get bumped ahead of Ura with a loss. I think Abi has a shot if everyone else on this list loses.

[Reonito]

11 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

That's 76 wins in the calendar year for Terunofuji. In the last 30 years only Hakuho, Asashoryu and Takanohana have beaten that.

The exciting race for most losses of the year comes down to the final day—Kotoeko and Kagayaki are tied with 53.

[Tigerboy1966]

30 minutes ago, Reonito said:

12 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

That's 76 wins in the calendar year for Terunofuji. In the last 30 years only Hakuho, Asashoryu and Takanohana have beaten that.

The exciting race for most losses of the year comes down to the final day—Kotoeko and Kagayaki are tied with 53.

I always knew that Kagayaki would win something one day.

In the infinitesimally small chance that Kagayaki reads a translated version of this I would like to add "Only joking big fella. Next year you are going to make that breakthrough."

[Octofuji]

46 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

I always knew that Kagayaki would win something one day.

If he loses out to Kotoeko then he might still get that eight consecutive maegashira makekoshi record... Or is he already doomed to juryo even with 5 wins?

 

Edit: just read the promotion thread, it seems he does have a chance even if it's slim!

Edited November 27, 2021 by Octofuji

[Reonito]

It's not completely out of the question that he'd stay with 5 wins, especially since this is Kagayaki we're talking about.

[Thorbjarn]

I feared that Takakeisho dropping to Abi yesterday basically decided the Yusho race, all for the pride atop the banzuke. 

Interesting takes some guys had on Ura, I feel like I have to disagree. He looks more composed and controlled, but still dishes out incredibly fast and fun moves. 

[Katooshu]

Ura is cool. He's something different, and, using a style that works best for his attributes, he consistently produces some of the most memorable kimarite and out of nowhere wins; he's had dozens of entertaining matches with big comebacks and momentum shifts. He is not some bottom ranking gimmick and is performing at high maegashira level. His attitude is unassuming and he never carries any ill will towards opponents (although yes, he sometimes has weird mannerisms). He came back from the bottom and 2 major setbacks. I like all that.

I was slightly annoyed at the wild fandom he had coming up (not his fault), which led to some other top prospects being largely ignored, but I think that's been toned down.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Katooshu

[Kamitsuumi]

10 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

For what it's worth, Wakanohana III predicated on the Abema TV broadcast that:

the kantosho will go to Abi,

the ginosho to Ura,

and no one will get the shukunsho.  

Let's see if his sansho predicting ability is better than his yusho predicting ability.

Mostly correct. K: Abi, Takanosho (with day 15 win); G: Ura; S: none

[WAKATAKE]

4 minutes ago, Kamitsuumi said:

Mostly correct. K: Abi, Takanosho (with day 15 win); G: Ura; S: none

Ura getting the gino-sho! It's about time that they recognized him

[code_number3]

13 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

Ura getting the gino-sho! It's about time that they recognized him

After all this time…

[Asashosakari]

I'm a bit surprised they didn't do the usual thing and offered up the gino-sho to Takanosho. Change of mood maybe? Ura arguably the second rikishi this year (after Midorifuji in January) to actually get it for technical expertise rather than just an unusually good overall performance.

Edit: Maybe third, Hoshoryu in July was kind of a mix of both.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Morty]

3 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Ura is cool. He's something different, and, using a style that works best for his attributes, he consistently produces some of the most memorable kimarite and out of nowhere wins; he's had dozens of entertaining matches with big comebacks and momentum shifts. He is not some bottom ranking gimmick and is performing at high maegashira level. His attitude is unassuming and he never carries any ill will towards opponents (although yes, he sometimes has weird mannerisms). He came back from the bottom and 2 major setbacks. I like all that.

I was slightly annoyed at the wild fandom he had coming up (not his fault), which led to some other top prospects being largely ignored, but I think that's been toned down.

I like Ura too simply because he has zero interest in attacking his opponent's belt, or their face and chest. That makes him interesting and likely to produce interesting matches, win or lose. His whole approach is to try and pick an arm or leg and use it to throw - he's basically doing judo, which makes sense given his background. The only issue is that doesn't work very well when someone big bum-rushes him, which is why he hangs so far back at the tachiai to try and avoid that. I can't ever see him making ozeki or Yokozuna, but he's fun to watch, because even though he has a consistent method of attack, you never know how his opponent will deal with it.

[Tigerboy1966]

No play-off in juryo as Kotokuzan loses to Nishikigi. Ichiyamamoto celebrates his yusho by doing the Ichiyamamoto thing: push'em, pull'em, slap'em down.