Ryuden Scandal

[Mightyduck]

I think that Abi blowing away the lower rankers may end up being the anomaly rather than the norm. His style is kind of geared towards that, he's a bit of a flat track bully. I think a meat and potatoes yotsu guy like ryuden could struggle more. Ditto Asanoyama.

[Gurowake]

2 hours ago, Mightyduck said:

I think that Abi blowing away the lower rankers may end up being the anomaly rather than the norm. His style is kind of geared towards that, he's a bit of a flat track bully. I think a meat and potatoes yotsu guy like ryuden could struggle more. Ditto Asanoyama.

Then there's Tochinoshin who only lost two matches on his way back to Makuuchi.  Generally yotsu guys should more consistently win against weaker competition, not that other way around.  But there's always a bit of randomness.  

[WAKATAKE]

I wanted to comment about this earlier but couldn't because of limited internet. People complaining about how sekitori falling into the lower divisions and then taking the yusho or spots that could possibly have been given to other potential wrestlers that want to rise up into the ranks. Those sekitori got there for a reason, because they trained harder and their records just ended up being better. Naturally this can be said for the lower rankers too. However to quote my college wrestling coach, "To be an All-American, you have to beat an All-American" To show that you truly belong in the upper ranks you have to show it. I get that there are those who come so close to attaining that status, but a 4-3 just does not cut it sometimes even from a Mak 2 or Mak 3 position. Another saying I would like to point out, "Never leave it to the judges" because they're going to be put into a position to make a decision that people won't like.

Let's look at the people who beat Terunofuji on his way back up the ranks:

Roga --> beat Terunofuji in the jonidan playoff. A fighter without a doubt but when he's in that position to push forward to juryo, has been MK both times (Mak 2 and mak 3 range)
Daishosei --> beat Terunofuji in his sandanme run. Has never broken out of the 4th division
Onojo --> beat Terunofuji in his first makushita basho back. Has only climbed as high as Mak 45
Chiyonokuni --> beat Terunofuji in what was essentially the division playoff. Completed his own comeback trip having fallen due to injury. Got back to the top division, still struggling with injuries and withdrew from this last basho. Expected to stay in the top division for Nagoya

Out of the four guys who defeated Teru on his way back up the ranks, only one is sekitori right now, and you can attribute that more to because he already has the experience and was down because of injury. Where the other three? They either haven't reached potential or just not cut out for it. I think though that nowhere is it unfair that the sekitori take the opportunities away from the lower rankers, the lower rankers just don't step up 120%.

[Jakusotsu]

1 hour ago, WAKATAKE said:

People complaining about how sekitori falling into the lower divisions and then taking the yusho or spots that could possibly have been given to other potential wrestlers that want to rise up into the ranks. Those sekitori got there for a reason, because they trained harder and their records just ended up being better. [...]

I hear you. But then again, Abi brandishing (at least) two yusho on his way back up feels more like an invitation by Willy Wonka than comeuppance.

Edit: What's more, when the dust has settled, Abi will have a share in the record books for most Makushita yusho, which would have never happened without his misdemeanor.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Jakusotsu

[Jakusotsu]

Actually there's quite an easy solution to this "problem": Make suspended rikishi ineligible for the yusho until they enter the division they've been demoted from again.

(...or for as many basho as they've been suspended.)

Edited June 2, 2021 by Jakusotsu

[Onibushou]

I'm not sure if "to be shin-juryo you have to beat an Ozeki" necessarily follows from that line of thinking. The exchange bouts work because to be juryo, you have to beat a struggling guy the bottom of juryo, not somebody well above your current level.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Onibushou

[Benevolance]

5 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

I hear you. But then again, Abi brandishing (at least) two yusho on his way back up feels more like an invitation by Willy Wonka than comeuppance.

Edit: What's more, when the dust has settled, Abi will have a share in the record books for most Makushita yusho, which would have never happened without his misdemeanor.

So what I'm hearing is he'll need just one more scandal and demotion before he can own the title wholly himself. 

[Eikokurai]

11 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Actually there's quite an easy solution to this "problem": Make suspended rikishi ineligible for the yusho until they enter the division they've been demoted from again.

(...or for as many basho as they've been suspended.)

Interesting idea. In this scenario, would the yusho simply not be awarded or would it go to the numerical runner-up? I could see people being against both. Imagine the ex-sekitori goes 7-0 and the nobody else does. That leads to the situation where a guy with a worse record takes the cup. People may accept it if someone matches the ex-sekitori's record and is awarded the championship by default without a playoff, but maybe not if their record is inferior.

[Naganoyama]

And what if there are 13 rikishi on 6-1?  13-way play-off.

[Eikokurai]

19 minutes ago, Naganoyama said:

And what if there are 13 rikishi on 6-1?  13-way play-off.

Indeed, not an implausible scenario. Last basho:

Makushita: 6-1 x 8 rikishi

Sandanme: 6-1 x 9 rikishi

 

13 x 6-1 has happened only once in Makushita, back in the 60s. We need only go back to January this year for 9 though. It's happened plenty in Sandanme.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Banzuke.aspx?b=196701

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&group_by=basho&form1_wins=6&form1_losses=1&form1_ms=on

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&group_by=basho&form1_wins=6&form1_losses=1&form1_sd=on

Edited June 3, 2021 by Eikokurai

[Seiyashi]

14 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Actually there's quite an easy solution to this "problem": Make suspended rikishi ineligible for the yusho until they enter the division they've been demoted from again.

(...or for as many basho as they've been suspended.)

On this note, why not just strip them of sekitori privileges instead of demoting them? So they get all of the guts but none of the glory?

Things like, they have to do stable chores, no private room, cannot appear in the dohyoiri, and cannot wear shimekomi in their bouts - black training mawashi and floppy sagari for them. That will be a public indication of their disgrace - public shaming, as it were - instead of being kept out of sight out of mind for a period following their misdemeanour and then becoming a comeback story. Because believe you me, if for 3 basho the broadcasters had to keep mentioning the reason why someone was competing in makuuchi in black cotton mawashi with floppy sagari, everyone will know.

Banzuke/torikumiwise:

• For hiramaku/juryo, order their fight cards as usual and change their banzuke positions as usual, but:
  • they cannot earn sansho, yusho, kensho, or kinboshi,
  • KKs won't count towards mochikyukin,
  • they cannot be promoted to sanyaku
  • results will not count towards a prospective ozeki run even if in the joi
• For sanyaku, suspend for one basho for junior sanyaku or three for ozeki (ensuring their fall), then hiramaku rules apply.
• Yokozuna are just suspended as usual

You might have to modify the duration of this punishment to account for time otherwise spent climbing back up (maybe X+2 basho with no privileges instead of X basho suspended). But you don't muck around with the toriteki and cause all sorts of mayhem in the lower divisions, and the effects are really more or less confined only to the perpetrator, with resulting banzuke luck confined to the joi/junior sanyaku area.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Eikokurai]

What if they win bouts with kensho on them? Does the loser get them or nobody? Or would no kensho be allowed on their bouts? Might suck for the other guy if he's used to fighting for a reward, though I guess it's a small sacrifice.

[Seiyashi]

2 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

What if they win bouts with kensho on them? Does the loser get them or nobody? Or would no kensho be allowed on their bouts? Might suck for the other guy if he's used to fighting for a reward, though I guess it's a small sacrifice.

The sadist in me says the loser always gets the kensho, which should make the sponsors dry up pretty quick. Something like the gyoji ceremoniously giving then taking away the kensho and the loser quietly gets it in the hanamichi later on.

It'd probably be neater to just transfer the kensho, if any, into the musubi, and then just not put the disgraced rikishi (if in the joi) in the musubi. It won't be a problem for sanyaku wrestlers because they'd be suspended under this system.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Seiyashi

[RabidJohn]

If a suspension that lands a fit, sanyaku level rikishi in low-mid makushita is an acceptable punishment for whatever infraction they're guilty of, then you've got to accept the likelihood of them winning yusho down there.
But it's not ideal, is it?

Like Seiyashi, I've been considering alternatives, but I don't think I'd suspend them at all. I'd hit them in the wallet and make them lose face for whatever period of time was deemed suitable. 
I'm thinking almost total loss of income and privileges during that period, and in the case of sekitori banning them from taking part in the dohyo-iri, or wearing an oicho-mage and silk shimekoma (i.e. they appear in a shabby grey mawashi with floppy sagari).
I'm thinking the metaphorical equivalent of Septa Unella marching behind them, ringing a bell and crying "Shame!"
Also they cannot be promoted no matter how well they do, but they will be demoted with a MK.
Finally, I'd make them ineligible for kensho or sansho, but not for yusho (the winner is the winner), though any prize monies will be confiscated and donated to suitable charities (maybe one offering counselling/therapy to men addicted to visiting massage parlours/hostess bars).

[Eikokurai]

3 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Also they cannot be promoted no matter how well they do, but they will be demoted with a MK.

I see potential for yaocho in this system. The rikishi in question has seven bouts to spare, so if they hit KK early enough, their remaining bouts can be gifted to opponents who need a win, since winning it themselves will make no difference to their own rank. They could also just go kyujo I suppose.

[RabidJohn]

22 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I see potential for yaocho in this system. The rikishi in question has seven bouts to spare, so if they hit KK early enough, their remaining bouts can be gifted to opponents who need a win, since winning it themselves will make no difference to their own rank. They could also just go kyujo I suppose.

I believe the intense scrutiny and close supervision the 'shamed' rikishi would find himself under would reduce the likelihood of yaocho, and simply don't let them go kyujo without a sicknote from a proper doctor.

[Seiyashi]

1 minute ago, RabidJohn said:

29 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I see potential for yaocho in this system. The rikishi in question has seven bouts to spare, so if they hit KK early enough, their remaining bouts can be gifted to opponents who need a win, since winning it themselves will make no difference to their own rank. They could also just go kyujo I suppose.

I believe the intense scrutiny and close supervision the 'shamed' rikishi would find himself under would reduce the likelihood of yaocho, and simply don't let them go kyujo without a sicknote from a proper doctor.

Considering the NSK has called out mukiryoku sumo before, I think it'll be obvious if the rikishi isn't trying. And considering he's already under punishment, one screwup like that will really mean curtains, so unless he's trying career suicide by shimpan...

[Yamanashi]

19 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

I hear you. But then again, Abi brandishing (at least) two yusho on his way back up feels more like an invitation by Willy Wonka than comeuppance.

Edit: What's more, when the dust has settled, Abi will have a share in the record books for most Makushita yusho, which would have never happened without his misdemeanor.

It is a strange record to hold, isn't it?  If you're an oft-injured Makuuchi type like Ura or Chiyonokuni, you might collect a couple on the express elevator up.  It appears that the other way to set the record is to be a rikishi with a natural "set point" at Ms10 - J12.  You'd just keep churning away for 10-15 basho.  The question is, would either group be particularly proud of that achievement?

[Asashosakari]

The only thing I wish they would have done is not match Ms56 Abi with Ms15 Tokisakae at 6-0 in March, because that had direct and tangible career implications for Tokisakae. Should have put Tokisakae against somebody like Oho (3-3 at Ms2e at the time) with the promotion on the line.

[just_some_guy]

26 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

It is a strange record to hold, isn't it?  If you're an oft-injured Makuuchi type like Ura or Chiyonokuni, you might collect a couple on the express elevator up.  It appears that the other way to set the record is to be a rikishi with a natural "set point" at Ms10 - J12.  You'd just keep churning away for 10-15 basho.  The question is, would either group be particularly proud of that achievement?

Exactly my thought. The ideal situation is you collect one, maybe two Makushita yusho on the way up and then don't come back. Holding the record for most yusho in that division is an indictment of either your consistency or your ability to stay healthy. Not exactly something anyone's going to be really excited about.

[Eikokurai]

I dunno. Considering how hard it is to become sekitori, never mind stay one, I think a lot of guys would be pretty proud of retiring with three makushita yusho to their name. It likely means they had a few shots at juryo and spent a lot of time at the top of Makushita. 'Best of the rest' isn't the worst thing to be. It would put you in the record books too, which means you get remembered. Most rikishi don't.

[Eikokurai]

23 minutes ago, just_some_guy said:

an indictment of either your consistency

A career spent around the top of Makushita/bottom of Juryo is pretty consistent; it only feels like it isn't because it involves divisional changes. But if you think about it, it's not much different to bouncing up and down Maegashira in terms of rank differential.

And a rikishi who scores big at the bottom of Makuuchi, goes up to the joi and gets smashed around, falls back to the bottom again and repeats is arguably less consistent than one who spends his life flitting back and forth between, say, Ms5 and J10. He just had a higher ceiling.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Eikokurai

[Seiyashi]

9 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

And a rikishi who scores big at the bottom of Makuuchi, goes up to the joi and gets smashed around, falls back to the bottom again and repeats is arguably less consistent than one who spends his life flitting back and forth between, say, Ms5 and J10. He just had a higher ceiling.

I'm not sure he's arguably less consistent, and more like really unfortunate, because it just means his skill ceiling falls right in the middle between lower and upper makuuchi. If you bounce between the joi and the double digit maegashira ranks, it's pretty much the same as bouncing between divisions in terms of the implications on your skill. In fact, if he see-saws for a whole year (a bit like what Tamawashi did for one year where he went 10-5 5-10 10-5), that's remarkably consistent - he's just not improving at all!

[Yamanashi]

45 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

I'm not sure he's arguably less consistent, and more like really unfortunate, because it just means his skill ceiling falls right in the middle between lower and upper makuuchi. If you bounce between the joi and the double digit maegashira ranks, it's pretty much the same as bouncing between divisions in terms of the implications on your skill. In fact, if he see-saws for a whole year (a bit like what Tamawashi did for one year where he went 10-5 5-10 10-5), that's remarkably consistent - he's just not improving at all!

BUT, he's getting paid the whole time.

[Sue]

7 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

• Yokozuna are just suspended as usual

One might argue that a suspension-worthy offence on the part of a Yokozuna damages their hinkaku to the point where they should have an intai recommendation, more so than merely going makekoshi would.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Sue