Hatsu Basho 2019 Discussion [SPOILERS]

[neonbelly]

2 hours ago, Dwale said:

Did he ever. It's actually a little scary how blue they got, once I saw it with a clear picture.

Where is this picture?

[Dwale]

21 minutes ago, neonbelly said:

Where is this picture?

 

[bettega]

Kaisei always was underrated - he have a very good sumo and is the gentliest of sumotori 

He has some trouble getting a KK as M1, but he get a KK as Komusubi, not a small feat.

I really like the Big Guy 

[dingo]

Hakuho only got the nod because he's the Yokozuna, it wasn't really based on anything else. Unfortunately stuff like this recurs time to time with him... 

[Bumpkin]

5 hours ago, dingo said:

Hakuho only got the nod because he's the Yokozuna, it wasn't really based on anything else. Unfortunately stuff like this recurs time to time with him... 

Hakuho won the match. He initiated the kimarite, tsukiotoshi, that won the match. Hokutofuji was shini-tai while Hakuho was still in the dohyo.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Bumpkin
typo

[Highway]

As an Aoiyama fan I am more than a bit ticked off with what happened on day 4, hopefully it doesn't derail him in what has been his best run for years it feels.

Very strange, but exciting basho so far.

[dingo]

21 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

Hakuho won the match, He initiated the kimarite, tsukiotoshi, that won the match. Hokutofuji was shini-tai while Hakuho was still in the hohyo.

It's pretty obvious that Hakuho did not initiate anything besides moving his hand out of the way a bit. I'll admit he did a good job staying inside the ring, but that's all - Hokutofuji was the one who had the initiative and it should've been a torinaoshi. 

[Bumpkin]

5 minutes ago, dingo said:

It's pretty obvious that Hakuho did not initiate anything besides moving his hand out of the way a bit. I'll admit he did a good job staying inside the ring, but that's all - Hokutofuji was the one who had the initiative and it should've been a torinaoshi. 

From the sumo glossary: Tsukiotoshi, thrust down, kimarite in which the attacker will drive his aite down into the clay with a thrusting motion after placing his open hand on the aite's upper rib cage or at his shoulder. Often used as a last ditch effort at the tawara.

[Asojima]

7 minutes ago, dingo said:

 ... I'll admit he did a good job staying inside the ring, but that's all ...

That sounds like enough to me.  Hakuho still had a foot on the sand inside the dohyo when Hokutofuji was fully airborne and outside the ring.

[Atenzan]

2 minutes ago, Asojima said:

That sounds like enough to me.  Hakuho still had a foot on the sand inside the dohyo when Hokutofuji was fully airborne and outside the ring.

Yep, good enough for me too. I don't recall anyone ever talking about initiative or engagement in a kimarite in a shinitai discussion before. 

By the way, is there a sumo rulebook by the NSK available anywhere? Because I'm not aware of its existence. 

[Bumpkin]

At 16:05 of Kinta's video, Hakuho grabs Hokutofuji's outer left elbow and pulls down, This caused Hokutofuji to lose balance and fall outside the dohyo.

[robnplunder]

Controversies?  Justices?   It's sumo as usual where things happen for no reason.  

1) Myogiryu didn't even get the monoii on a bout he clearly beat Takayasu.   

2) Aoiyama's inadvertent hair pull at the end as Onosho was falling down usually does not get a monoii, let alone overturn the verdict.  A bit of Onosho's acting got the monoii going and cost Aoiyama's sure win.

3) Hak ballets out of two losses, one with an aid of monoii.   

4) Collapse of Ozekis early on, Kise retirement, Mita's surge, Takakeisho's continuous strong run, ... , sumo is no fun at all.   It's the most boring 15 days of any sport, 2nd to the final 15 days of The World Cup (you know, the one that the Brazilians can't seem to win these days).   No fun at all.    

[Amamaniac]

34 minutes ago, Highway said:

As an Aoiyama fan I am more than a bit ticked off with what happened on day 4, hopefully it doesn't derail him in what has been his best run for years it feels.

It looked to all Aoiyama's fans as though Onosho got his hair stuck in Aoiyama's fingers (and not the other way around).  

I was happy to see Aoiyama take the decision calmly and walk out of the stadium as though the decision was no big thing.  That maturity (i.e., emotional control) will  really help prevent him from getting derailed.  Back in 2012, he reacted to a loss by punching a hole in a wall.  He has made great strides.  His oyakata, Kasugano, deserves credit for much of Aoiyama's recent success.

I will be very interested in the outcome of his next bout against Ryuden.  Both men have been fighting well, Aoiyama arguably a little better than Ryuden.

[Rocks]

13 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

I will be very interested in the outcome of his next bout against Ryuden.  Both men have been fighting well, Aoiyama arguably a little better than Ryuden.

I would not want to be Ryuden tonight. I hope Aoiyama isn't too eager either.

[bettega]

47 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

Controversies?  Justices?   It's sumo as usual where things happen for no reason.  

1) Myogiryu didn't even get the monoii on a bout he clearly beat Takayasu.   

2) Aoiyama's inadvertent hair pull at the end as Onosho was falling down usually does not get a monoii, let alone overturn the verdict.  A bit of Onosho's acting got the monoii going and cost Aoiyama's sure win.

3) Hak ballets out of two losses, one with an aid of monoii.   

4) Collapse of Ozekis early on, Kise retirement, Mita's surge, Takakeisho's continuous strong run, ... , sumo is no fun at all.   It's the most boring 15 days of any sport, 2nd to the final 15 days of The World Cup (you know, the one that the Brazilians can't seem to win these days).   No fun at all.    

Ouch. 

 

This an eventful basho for sure! But contrary to most I don't think that the "new gen" are good enough. I think we'll have some time of really mediocre sumo, with many sumotori in spotlight before any really good one. There's a lot of 26 and 27y old sekitoru that aren't that good (nor that bad) in the upper ranks. A really good one would be Ozeki/Yokozuna by 21-24y old

[since_94]

I agree there have been some seriously bad/missed calls in this tournament. The ozekis have been struggling to a degree I never would have expected and I'm disappointed Tochinoshin is out, but not surprised considering how ineffectual his Sumo has been. I jogged past the Kokugikan this morning and it was still possible to join the ticket line and get a number well after 7am if anyone's considering purchasing day-of seats, for weekdays anyway.

[Minaminoumi]

2 hours ago, Atenzan said:

By the way, is there a sumo rulebook by the NSK available anywhere? Because I'm not aware of its existence. 

This is the only copy I've been able to find: http://www.geocities.jp/mmts_sumo/huzoku.htm

[Treblemaker]

With the anticipation of a Goeido - Ichinojo bout where you already knew how it was going to play out, it almost didn't. Credit to Goeido for giving a perfect impression of someone trying to move a fridge. At least here, for the first time in a while, was the old Goeido in the attempt. But the fridge won. 

And I was hoping for Hakuho to extend the bout at least another 30 seconds, really enjoyed the action. But that should have been a re-do. Both were neck-and-neck (heel-and-toe? on their way down and I don't recall either initiating the action. I mean, you have 6 pairs of eyes + video... How can you not catch the action? Oh wait... 5 of those pairs of eyes belong to former head-butters with dubious vision and thick glasses and slow reflexes...… Yeah, never mind.

And I spotted a very old man in the third row being helped up by two gentlemen on either side of him. Who was that? Anyone important?

[itchyknee]

On 15/01/2019 at 08:24, Midoriyama said:

But it´s natural there are gonna be some major changes in very near future because only 2 out of 10 sanyaku rikishis for this tournament are under 30 and from the 8 only Tochinoshin is younger than 32

 

On 15/01/2019 at 10:26, Old Shatterhand is dead said:

I wrote we are witnessing the beginning of the generation change, and I think this statement still stands. We have three (?) "old" yokozunas who are seemingly over their best days, three "old" and vulnerable ozekis, whose main target many times to avoid kadoban status without real chance for a yokozuna run. I would not be surprised if Tochinoshin lost his ozeki title in this year and I am not sure about Goeido either.

"When both Hakuho and Kakuryu start going kadoban 3+ tournaments (...)"  When it happens the generation change will not be happening but it will be an inch to be completed.

It started for sure.

Yeah, I agree.  I went overboard earlier.  Looking back at how infrequent it is for much younger wrestlers to start pushing up into the Ozeki/Yokozuna ranks when a particular cohort is dominating, the next generation really is starting to push.

What's amazing is how long the current generation (those who start around 2001/2002) has managed to stay on top.  It's been 13 years since most recent Hatsu dohyo for Ozeki (Terunofuji excepted) and 17 years since most recent hatsu dohyo for Yokozuna (which is close to the max spread of the last wave of Yoks who hatsu'd in 1988/89 to the current wave).

Prior to the 1950s Yoks didn't go in waves; there was constant generational churn.  What happened?  Was the change of format that extreme?

[Yamanashi]

8 minutes ago, Treblemaker said:

And I spotted a very old man in the third row being helped up by two gentlemen on either side of him.

I saw that too.  Heat? Dehydration?  That's what I was thinking; too far away from the ring to be a bout casualty.

 

[Benevolance]

Man, I got here late. All the good comments are taken. 

[Rocks]

A question for those in the know. How does a Juryo visitor, like Ishiura on day 6, end up in the 2nd macuuchi match and not the first? You would think they would always be in the first match. 

[Kamitsuumi]

39 minutes ago, Rocks said:

A question for those in the know. How does a Juryo visitor, like Ishiura on day 6, end up in the 2nd macuuchi match and not the first? You would think they would always be in the first match. 

The ordering of the bouts is determined by the higher ranking rikishi of each bout. In addition, generally the first few cross division bouts has increasingly higher ranked makuuchi rikishi but increasingly lower ranked juryo rikishi. This means that the bout would sometimes happen after the first makuuchi bout. 

[itchyknee]

2 minutes ago, Kamitsuumi said:

The ordering of the bouts is determined by the higher ranking rikishi of each bout. In addition, generally the first few cross division bouts has increasingly higher ranked makuuchi rikishi but increasingly lower ranked juryo rikishi. This means that the bout would sometimes happen after the first makuuchi bout. 

I thought that might be the case, but Yutakayama is higher ranked than Chiyoshoma, and yet the Ishiura/Chiyoshoma bout is listed as #2 for day 6.

Maegashira #14 Yutakayama （3-1）				Maegashira #16 Daishomaru （0-4）
Juryo #3 Ishiura （3-1）				Maegashira #14 Chiyoshoma （2-2）

[Asojima]

22 minutes ago, itchyknee said:

I thought that might be the case, but Yutakayama is higher ranked than Chiyoshoma, and yet the Ishiura/Chiyoshoma bout is listed as #2 for day 6.

Maegashira #14 Yutakayama （3-1）				Maegashira #16 Daishomaru （0-4）
Juryo #3 Ishiura （3-1）				Maegashira #14 Chiyoshoma （2-2）

For match making purposes, the east side is ranked higher on odd days, and west is higher on even days.