Trivia bits

[Yamanashi]

14 minutes ago, Barutokai said:

Playing Guessing the Banzuke would've been more challenging back then I guess...

 ... or impossible.

[Asashosakari]

(Moved from the Ajigawa-beya discussion.)
 

13 hours ago, Reonito said:

Either way, [rikishi qualified to open a heya via 25 sanyaku basho] it's a very short list.

FWIW, I was thinking in general sumo history, not specifically the time period since the actual rule came in.

Rikishi            15 S/K    20 S/K    25 S/K
---------------------------------------------
Mitsuneyama (O)   1953.03
Asashio (Y)       1957.01
Tokitsuyama       1959.03
Annenyama         1961.07   1962.05
Dewanishiki       1961.11
Tochihikari (O)   1962.05
Daigo             1964.05
Kotozakura (Y)    1967.09
Kiyokuni (O)      1968.09
Daikirin (O)      1969.07   1970.05
Hasegawa          1970.09   1971.11   1972.11
Takamiyama        1974.07   1976.03   1977.11
Kaiketsu (O)      1975.01
Kurohimeyama      1977.03
Kirinji           1983.05
Dewanohana        1986.01
Asahifuji (Y)     1987.09
Sakahoko          1989.07
Kotogaume         1989.11
Tochinowaka       1992.03
Kotonishiki       1993.11   1994.11   1996.03
Akinoshima        1995.01   1997.01   1999.05
Takatoriki        1996.05   1997.05   1999.05
Kaio (O)          1996.11   1998.01   1999.05
Musoyama (O)      1996.11   1998.01   1999.01
Tochiazuma (O)    2000.09   2001.11
Tosanoumi         2002.09   2005.05
Wakanosato        2003.07   2004.05   2005.05
Kotomitsuki (O)   2004.11   2005.11   2006.09
Kisenosato (Y)    2010.05   2011.07
Kotoshogiku (O)   2011.07
Goeido (O)        2013.11
Tochiozan         2014.05   2015.09   2017.09
Aminishiki        2014.07
Mitakeumi (O)     2019.05   2020.09   2021.07

This list excludes rikishi who reached one of the milestones only after they were ozeki, e.g. Takayasu had 8 S/K tournaments at the time of his promotion and now has 15, and Kotoshogiku, who's listed at 15, also reached 20 later on.

So, not counting rikishi who later became ozeki or even yokozuna, there have only been 19 / 9 / 7 rikishi who reached the respective number of S/K tournaments in the last ~70 years.

Special trivia note: Of the (including later Y/O) 11 rikishi who got to 25 S/K tournaments, somehow three of them reached that milestone in the exact same basho, Natsu 1999.

[Reonito]

Seems like getting to just 15 was a lot more common before 1993 than since...

[Koorifuu]

On 03/12/2022 at 16:16, Reonito said:

Seems like getting to just 15 was a lot more common before 1993 than since...

Based on Asashosakari's table, that's 20 rikishi in 40 years pre-'93, and 15 rikishi in 29 years. Make the latter 30 years instead, and the average, interestingly, is exactly the same; one bloke every two years.

[Reonito]

43 minutes ago, Koorifuu said:

Based on Asashosakari's table, that's 20 rikishi in 40 years pre-'93, and 15 rikishi in 29 years. Make the latter 30 years instead, and the average, interestingly, is exactly the same; one bloke every two years.

I was thinking of the ones in red: 9 pre-'93, 1 post (10 and 2 if you throw in the ones in orange). Not sure if it's just small sample size, or if there was a reason more guys who never made it to ozeki used to get to 15 san'yaku basho but not 25.

[Asashosakari]

I think the mid-to-late 1990s were just highly anomalous with the 5 strong Y/O on top for years and a whole bunch of near-ozeki caliber guys underneath who got in each other's way. Kaio, Musoyama and Tochiazuma finally benefitted from the top guys aging out, while Kotonishiki, Akinoshima and Takatoriki were themselves too old by then. (And Tosanoumi, who belongs in there as well, just wasn't good enough.)

But more generally speaking, I think the underlying trend here is that high-rankers tend to last longer nowadays (not that one could tell from the current high-rankers...) than they did up to the 1980s, so back then if you were good enough to become ozeki you often got your shot without a lengthy run-up of S/K appearances. The guys who still got a sizable amount of them often just weren't really close to ozeki material, and 15-ish sounds about right for rikishi of that type. Also, keep in mind that they were less stingy with the sanyaku slots then, so rikishi such as Myogiryu and Toyonoshima (both at 13) or even more recently Tamawashi (right now at 14) probably would feature on the list under the same banzuke conditions.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Asashosakari

[Yamanashi]

Strange but not strange: # of 7-0 Yusho in Jonokuchi since 2000.  The backwards trend suggests that most 7-0 scores are taken by fresh up-and-comers, and rarely by Jk 1-6, who are probably ancient veterans (however, I will check this).

Jk rank  N

1             0

2             1

3             0

4             1

5             4

6             2

7             0

8             1

9             4

10           3

11           6

12           4

13           2

14           6

15           4

16           8

[Yamanashi]

1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

Strange but not strange: # of 7-0 Yusho in Jonokuchi since 2000.  The backwards trend suggests that most 7-0 scores are taken by fresh up-and-comers, and rarely by Jk 1-6, who are probably ancient veterans (however, I will check this).

Jk rank  N

 

1             0

 

2             1

 

3             0

 

4             1

 

5             4

 

6             2

 

7             0

 

8             1

 

9             4

 

10           3

 

11           6

 

12           4

 

13           2

 

14           6

 

15           4

 

16           8

I've checked from Jk1 to Jk11; all are either first time rikishi, or men that have fallen from Sd or Ms (or M!) and went 7-0 on their first basho back.  Ikeru, who had multiple injuries, had Yusho from Jk24 on his first basho and subsequent "rebound" Yusho at Jk19 and Jk11.  I haven't yet seen a 7-0 from a journeyman of Jk/Jd/Sd.

[Asashosakari]

Isegahama-beya (via Takarafuji hanging on in makuuchi) narrowly avoided joining this list of infamy:

Hanakago-beya (twice)
Takasago-beya
Tokitsukaze-beya

 

[Wakawakawaka]

Idk if there would be a non-manual way of checking this, but could this be perhaps the oldest collection of top division rikishi?

The average birthday of top divison rikishi on the Kyushu 2022 banzuke was December 11, 1992. Meaning average age of 29 years 11 months, 2 days at the start of the basho.

In large part due to Atamifuji dropping to juryo this banzuke, the average birthday got pushed back to November 2, 1992. Meaning average age has broken 30, and at start of basho will be  30 years, 2 months, 6 days.

EDIT: Actually Kyushu 2021 beats Hatsu 2023 with 30 years, 2 months, 26 days.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Wakawakawaka

[Kamitsuumi]

The 1800s must have had a lot of >30 average bashos. Haru 1844 and Haru 1880, the first two I checked, both have an average of 36 (taking only rikishi with a birth date available).

[Gurowake]

On 27/12/2022 at 20:02, Wakawakawaka said:

Idk if there would be a non-manual way of checking this

You could do a request for all Makuuchi rikishi, grouped by basho, and include the birthdate.  Get all that data into excel and do some text parsing, and you should be able to get something out of it.  I'll look into doing it in the next couple days if I get time and remember (I don't have time right now - just browsing on break at work).

[Gurowake]

The database requirement to have at most 1000 lines per page makes this less fast than it could be if I could get all the results on the same page, but it's not too time consuming to do them 1000 at a time.  I started with everything since 2000.  Here they are in ascending order of numbers of days old the average competitor was at the beginning of the month of the basho, and then that number divided by 365 to get their approximate age (I'm not going to try to work in leap years).  Days are presented as the nearest integer, and the year approximate to 3 decimal places.  The average age is definitely older now than a decade ago.

The database doesn't have the current banzuke up yet, so I can't compare it using this method of calculation yet.

Spoiler

	Basho	Days (int)	Days/365
1	2005.07	10086	27.632
2	2005.11	10092	27.650
3	2000.11	10095	27.657
4	2005.01	10100	27.670
5	2012.01	10136	27.769
6	2005.05	10147	27.801
7	2000.09	10171	27.866
8	2005.09	10172	27.868
9	2007.11	10175	27.877
10	2008.09	10182	27.896
11	2006.01	10182	27.897
12	2001.01	10196	27.933
13	2008.07	10200	27.945
14	2008.03	10202	27.950
15	2004.11	10208	27.967
16	2014.03	10211	27.975
17	2000.01	10218	27.994
18	2008.01	10225	28.013
19	2006.05	10228	28.021
20	2012.05	10231	28.031
21	2000.07	10234	28.037
22	2001.03	10234	28.038
23	2006.09	10235	28.042
24	2001.05	10239	28.053
25	2013.05	10245	28.068
26	2008.05	10250	28.082
27	2001.07	10261	28.113
28	2012.03	10262	28.116
29	2014.05	10263	28.117
30	2000.05	10264	28.120
31	2003.03	10265	28.123
32	2007.07	10271	28.141
33	2011.09	10284	28.176
34	2011.11	10285	28.178
35	2007.03	10290	28.193
36	2002.03	10294	28.203
37	2005.03	10299	28.217
38	2008.11	10306	28.235
39	2001.11	10308	28.241
40	2006.07	10309	28.243
41	2009.01	10319	28.272
42	2000.03	10325	28.289
43	2002.05	10328	28.296
44	2006.03	10329	28.298
45	2002.01	10329	28.298
46	2004.07	10330	28.301
47	2014.01	10335	28.314
48	2012.07	10336	28.318
49	2001.09	10338	28.323
50	2004.09	10344	28.340
51	2014.11	10344	28.340
52	2013.01	10357	28.375
53	2004.05	10361	28.386
54	2002.07	10366	28.399
55	2007.05	10370	28.410
56	2013.11	10377	28.431
57	2009.07	10386	28.456
58	2007.09	10391	28.469
59	2013.03	10396	28.482
60	2006.11	10397	28.484
61	2014.09	10398	28.488
62	2012.09	10401	28.495
63	2017.01	10404	28.503
64	2012.11	10404	28.505
65	2010.07	10407	28.513
66	2011.07	10409	28.517
67	2003.01	10409	28.519
68	2007.01	10410	28.520
69	2002.11	10411	28.523
70	2004.01	10422	28.552
71	2004.03	10423	28.557
72	2013.07	10424	28.559
73	2009.05	10429	28.572
74	2003.11	10437	28.594
75	2013.09	10444	28.613
76	2017.09	10445	28.618
77	2003.09	10449	28.626
78	2017.03	10457	28.649
79	2009.11	10459	28.655
80	2016.09	10462	28.662
81	2015.01	10465	28.670
82	2017.05	10466	28.674
83	2018.03	10475	28.699
84	2010.03	10487	28.732
85	2002.09	10489	28.736
86	2010.05	10490	28.741
87	2017.07	10492	28.744
88	2016.11	10492	28.746
89	2014.07	10494	28.749
90	2009.03	10498	28.761
91	2009.09	10498	28.762
92	2003.05	10503	28.774
93	2016.05	10512	28.800
94	2003.07	10521	28.825
95	2018.01	10526	28.837
96	2018.07	10537	28.869
97	2010.01	10538	28.872
98	2015.05	10541	28.879
99	2011.05	10542	28.881
100	2016.01	10548	28.900
101	2016.07	10558	28.927
102	2019.11	10561	28.933
103	2011.01	10575	28.971
104	2017.11	10576	28.975
105	2018.09	10580	28.986
106	2015.03	10599	29.037
107	2018.11	10605	29.056
108	2015.09	10606	29.058
109	2010.11	10614	29.078
110	2019.01	10624	29.108
111	2019.05	10627	29.115
112	2019.03	10633	29.132
113	2019.09	10649	29.176
114	2019.07	10654	29.189
115	2020.11	10661	29.208
116	2016.03	10691	29.290
117	2015.11	10704	29.325
118	2015.07	10728	29.391
119	2021.03	10735	29.410
120	2021.01	10755	29.466
121	2018.05	10761	29.482
122	2020.09	10771	29.510
123	2010.09	10793	29.570
124	2020.07	10818	29.637
125	2020.03	10826	29.660
126	2021.05	10855	29.740
127	2022.09	10855	29.740
128	2020.01	10871	29.784
129	2022.11	10874	29.792
130	2022.05	10889	29.834
131	2022.07	10895	29.849
132	2021.07	10913	29.899
133	2022.03	10928	29.940
134	2022.01	10963	30.036
135	2021.09	10968	30.050
136	2021.11	11032	30.224

 

[Akinomaki]

3 hours ago, Gurowake said:

You could do a request for all Makuuchi rikishi, grouped by basho, and include the birthdate.  Get all that data into excel and do some text parsing, and you should be able to get something out of it.  I'll look into doing it in the next couple days if I get time and remember (I don't have time right now - just browsing on break at work).

I did that last basho to check sekitori - makuuchi - sanyaku

On 31/10/2022 at 19:28, Akinomaki said:

Looking at the banzuke, it doesn't seem like a change of guards is happening - 1 of the 35 years or older veterans is in juryo, Tokushoryu, 8 are in makuuchi, with Tamawashi as the oldest, he'll turn 38 during the basho. The youngest sekitori now is new makuuchi Atamifuji, he turned 20 in September, only 5 others in makuuchi are below 25 and Kotonowaka only for 3 weeks more. 12 are 30-34, 7 in juryo - close to half of makuuchi is 30 or above.

2 years ago we had 4 at 35 and above, also with Tamawashi as the oldest, and 3 in juryo, also 12 at 30-34 - the average age in makuuchi is half a year higher now. 4 years ago we had only 1 age 35 and above in makuuchi and 3 in juryo, average makuuchi age only slightly lower, but 6 years ago it was again half a year lower. The average sekitori age overall also rose by about 1 year in these 6 years, 28.25 to  29.20, but dropped slightly from 2 years ago.

Average age in sanyaku dropped from 29.79 to 29.33 in these 6 years, with the drop from 29.70 to 29.35  from 2018 to 20.

[Yamanashi]

22 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

The average age is definitely older now than a decade ago.

The data has a definite overall upward trend.(about a month in age for every calendar year).  The peak was at the end of last year.  Hmmm ...

[Gurowake]

It won't be easy to go back as far as the data goes due to limitations in how Excel handles dates and how I'm parsing the birthdates.  For dates in the 1800s, my formulas are giving nonsense.  For anyone without a full birthday, the text parsing formulas will get messed up.  I'll try to go back as far as I can until either of those becomes a problem.

[Gurowake]

Here's the top 20 Makuuchi age averages from the time periods where my formulas give sensible results.  

	Basho	Days (int)	Days/365
1	Sep-1957	11160	30.575
2	Nov-1957	11070	30.329
3	May-1957	11058	30.297
4	Jan-1958	11035	30.232
5	Nov-2021	11032	30.224
6	Mar-1957	11004	30.149
7	Sep-2021	10968	30.050
8	Jan-2022	10963	30.036
9	May-1958	10956	30.016
10	Sep-1956	10950	30.000
11	Mar-2022	10928	29.940
12	May-1956	10925	29.932
13	Mar-1958	10921	29.920
14	Jul-2021	10913	29.899
15	Jul-2022	10895	29.849
16	May-2022	10889	29.834
17	Jan-1939	10881	29.811
18	Jan-1957	10880	29.809
19	Nov-2022	10874	29.792
20	Jan-2020	10871	29.784

[Gurowake]

Here's a graph.

 

 

Earlier time periods have rikishi born prior to 1900, which Excel does not handle appropriately with formulas.  There might be a workaround, but I'm not interested in going any further, if only because there also starts being a relative lack of information on birthdates then as well.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Gurowake

[Gurowake]

Top ten decreases in age in the data set from the previous basho to the one listed, measured in days/365:

	Basho	Change
1	Sep-1961	-0.786
2	Mar-1985	-0.737
3	Nov-1945	-0.684
4	May-1939	-0.642
5	Jul-2018	-0.614
6	Nov-1964	-0.595
7	Nov-2007	-0.593
8	Nov-1990	-0.589
9	Sep-1991	-0.579
10	Mar-1982	-0.521

The July 2018 instance was from the demotion of both Takekaze and Aminishiki, replaced with Onosho and Meisei (and Daiamami down and Kotoeko up, but not as much of a difference there). 

Top 10 increases:

	Basho	Change
1	Sep-2010	1.057
2	Jan-1939	0.865
3	Jan-2020	0.851
4	May-2018	0.783
5	May-2003	0.651
6	Jul-2014	0.632
7	Mar-2005	0.547
8	May-1948	0.544
9	Jul-2015	0.512
10	Jul-2013	0.491

September 2010 featured a bunch of young rikishi demoted for gambling.  Jan 2020 featured repromotion of veterans Azumaryu, Ikioi, Tochiozan, Tokushoryu, and Kaisei (all born 86-87), while relatively young rikishi Tomokaze, Ichinojo, Daishomaru, Wakatakakage, Nishikigi and Daishoho (all born early 90s) were demoted.  Bucking the trend, Kiribayama was also promoted.  May 2018 saw the repromotion of Takekaze and Aminishiki which was followed by the basho mentioned above in the decreases.

[Yamanashi]

Has anyone compiled the list of longest double-digit win streaks?  Hakuho had 51 straight from 1/2007 to 7/2015.

[Asashosakari]

It's perhaps kind of obvious (or at least not surprising) given the shape of the banzuke, but Hatsu 2023 is the first modern era basho that starts off with fewer than 2 active Y/O (Link).

Edited January 7, 2023 by Asashosakari

[code_number3]

Terutsuyoshi has lost 17 sekitori matches in a row. Is there anyone has longer losing record than him?

[Katooshu]

Futatsuryu had 21 (and a streak of 11 shortly before that), Itai had 18, and a few others also had 17. So not quite the record holder yet, but he's getting close.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Katooshu

[Gurowake]

Daieisho's defeat of 4 Sekiwake in honwari matches in the same tournament is the 17th such occurrence we have records of.  He's is the second maegashira to do it, and the first of any rank to have all the wins in the first week.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&group_expand=on&group_by=rikishi1&group_by2=basho&having=4&day=1-15&onlyw1=on&rank2=s&offset=50

[Tsuchinoninjin]

Ochiai first win as fusensho is first time Tsukedashi rank had fusensho as first win (?)

Against poor Oki, of 0-15 sekitori record fame.