A funny thing happened...to the Forum

[Arslan]

Finally, as for complaints about his absences and behavior, what else is new? :-)

Well for one thing, no other yokozuna ever been away from his own heya/residence in Tokyo as much as he has been.

A yokozuna is more than a mere rikishi. He symbolizes Ozumo, his constant presence is a necessity for Ozumo's continuity - there are times when no yokozuna was around and in those times there were cries for a yokozuna from within and out of sumo world. A yokozuna's duty isn't just being around hon-basho but he should be around for supporters club functions, other heya/ichmon social functions as well as interacting with general public. If not injured, he is expected to help train other upcoming rikishi. This all comes with the territory. Asashoryu has never been coached well in this regards and this is a real tragedy.

As for records, an injury is no excuse for accumulating non-yokozuna records or absenses from the basho. A yokozuna will never be demoted. His stipends are far more than other rikishi. He is expected to perform at a level far exceeds the the others. If he cannot for any reason, there is only one course of action - to retire gracefully. When a rikishi is promoted to yokozuna, the first thing his shisho will tell him is to know when and how to retire. It is a tradition.

Unless he improves his own conduct significantly, his legacy will be that of one of the worst yokozuna in history. In the eyes of Japanese public, a yokozuna should be a model citizen or at least displays devotion and dedication to the customs and traditions of Japanese Ozumo. You might all talk about his records and etc but in the end, records are made to be broken and once they are gone, the recordholders are mere footnotes in the record books. Great yokozuna aspire and inspire the new generations of rikish and fans. They are fondly remembered by all that follow Ozumo.

The bar is much higher for yokozuna and you may all complain how unfair it is but the yokozuna willingly accepted and pledged the oath to do their utmost to conduct themselves like a yokozuna. If one feels he cannot meet the conditions or rules set forth, then he can always leave. There is no one forcing him to keep the position or even making him stay with the Kyokai. Even a retired yokozuna who may be needed by the Kyokai will not be stopped. Just ask Akebono or perhaps soon Musashimaru.

What about Hakuho? His presense is not enough for Ozumo?

[Arslan]

Finally, as for complaints about his absences and behavior, what else is new? :-)

Well for one thing, no other yokozuna ever been away from his own heya/residence in Tokyo as much as he has been.

A yokozuna's duty isn't just being around hon-basho but he should be around for supporters club functions, other heya/ichmon social functions as well as interacting with general public. If not injured, he is expected to help train other upcoming rikishi. This all comes with the territory. Asashoryu has never been coached well in this regards and this is a real tragedy.

As for records, an injury is no excuse for accumulating non-yokozuna records or absenses from the basho. A yokozuna will never be demoted. His stipends are far more than other rikishi. He is expected to perform at a level far exceeds the the others. If he cannot for any reason, there is only one course of action - to retire gracefully. When a rikishi is promoted to yokozuna, the first thing his shisho will tell him is to know when and how to retire. It is a tradition.

The bar is much higher for yokozuna and you may all complain how unfair it is but the yokozuna willingly accepted and pledged the oath to do their utmost to conduct themselves like a yokozuna. If one feels he cannot meet the conditions or rules set forth, then he can always leave. There is no one forcing him to keep the position or even making him stay with the Kyokai. Even a retired yokozuna who may be needed by the Kyokai will not be stopped. Just ask Akebono or perhaps soon Musashimaru.

Even if he was coached extremely well concerning the duties of a yokozuna, that doesn't mean Asashoryu would follow that coaching. He is an individual unlike any other in sumo. He's an egotist who believes that following the rules of conduct are for others but not himself. He basically follows his own rules, and when the Kyokai got fed up with his conduct, they suspended him for two bashos. From his recent conduct, it seems that suspension did little if any good.

Asashoryu will retire either when the Kyokai demands his resignation or when he feels like it. Whatever happens, it probably won't be done very gracefully. His shisho can give him advice about graceful retirement, but since he seems to have very little respect for his shisho, that advice will go unheeded.

Although a yokozuna is expected to perform at a higher level than others, he has a real advantage. If he's injured and he feels that he cannot compete properly, all he has to do is drop out of the basho and wait until he feels he can. In the American military it's called RHIP--"rank has its privileges". Compare the elbow injuries of Asashoryu and Chiyotaikai. Chiyotaikai's injury was extremely serious but he couldn't go kyujo without at least trying to compete. He went 0-7 in January and looked terrible before he finally went kyujo. He came back in March with an 8-7 record, saving his ozeki rank and lengthening his career. But no matter how bad his elbow was (and I'm sure it was very painful), he HAD to compete or retire. Asashoryu is under no similar type of pressure.

If things get to the point that the Kyokai demands his retirement, I'm sure Asashoryu will put on a very good show, similar to the one when he was suspended. He'll then go back to Mongolia and enjoy all the money and fame he acquired from sumo. And I'm sure he'll always believe how ridiculous the rules of yokozuna behavior were. Once an egotist, always an egotist.

Oh, come on! If Asa retires, sumo will be boring! boring! boring! (Shaking head...) Boring for Japanese media and even for this forum members. What you'll be talking about? Whose behavior you will be discussing here? Boring Hakuho? Kotooshu? Any Japanese rikishi? :-) If you look carefully forum topics the most commonly used name here is Asa.

[Shomishuu]

Oh, come on! If Asa retires, sumo will be boring! boring! boring! ;-) Boring for Japanese media and even for this forum members. What you'll be talking about? Whose behavior you will be discussing here?

Sumo is at its best when behavior is not a topic of discussion at all. Then we can talk about why the sumo is good or bad, or why yokozunae are winning or struggling, or who's up 'n' coming or sinking fast, or why so-and-so keeps changing his mawashi color, or even the changing color of Dejima's legs. Matta and henka are also cool things to hash out, as well as Homasho's tachiai (or lack of it) and kosho (or lack of it). Harite is something else that's puzzling - if it's such a bad idea, then why does everybody keep doing it? And if you think the current ozeki are so bad, how about comparing them to the ones from days of yore - you'll change your mind, I think.

Behavior? Who needs to talk about behavior?

Sumo boring? Never. :-)

Edited August 27, 2008 by Shomishuu

[Arslan]

Oh, come on! If Asa retires, sumo will be boring! boring! boring! :-) Boring for Japanese media and even for this forum members. What you'll be talking about? Whose behavior you will be discussing here?

Sumo is at its best when behavior is not a topic of discussion at all. Then we can talk about why the sumo is good or bad, or why yokozunae are winning or struggling, or who's up 'n' coming or sinking fast, or why so-and-so keeps changing his mawashi color, or even the changing color of Dejima's legs. Matta and henka are also cool things to hash out, as well as Homasho's tachiai (or lack of it) and kosho (or lack of it). Harite is something else that's puzzling - if it's such a bad idea, then why does everybody keep doing it? And if you think the current ozeki are so bad, how about comparing them to the ones from days of yore - you'll change your mind, I think.

Behavior? Who needs to talk about behavior?

Sumo boring? Never. :-D

It seems that Asa's behavior and his life take more attention than henka and matta. Good or bad sumo is not discussed here as often as Asa

[Asashosakari]

It seems that Asa's behavior and his life take more attention than henka and matta. Good or bad sumo is not discussed here as often as Asa

[JAB]

Arslan pretty much hits the nail on the head re: this forum. You all state how much of an ass Asa is, yet that is all everyone talks about!

Arslan -

I have tried to bring up subjects about technique, style, skill etc. and have been pretty much ignored. Their is more interest in gossip here than actually analyzing (or teaching a noobie) Sumo.

Jake

[Zentoryu]

Arslan -

I have tried to bring up subjects about technique, style, skill etc. and have been pretty much ignored. Their is more interest in gossip here than actually analyzing (or teaching a noobie) Sumo.

Yet during last basho when people were actually talking about that stuff in hon-basho talk, you were no where to be found.

Ozumo Discussion is for general Sumo news (or gossip as you call it). If you want to talk about technique and style, etc. show up during a basho and post about it in hon-basho talk. Trying to do it here, especially between basho isn't going to get you anywhere. You'll find most of the people interested in such discussion only show up during basho.

Edited August 27, 2008 by Zentoryu

[Kintamayama]

Arslan -

I have tried to bring up subjects about technique, style, skill etc. and have been pretty much ignored. Their is more interest in gossip here than actually analyzing (or teaching a noobie) Sumo.

Jake

There were many "noobies" arriving since the beginning of this forum. You can't expect a discussion on the same subject over and over again every time someone new comes around and wants answers. Most of the "noobies" used the search function. You didn't and won't. Instead, you choose to bad mouth the forum on every occasion.. So why are you still here, if we're such assholes? Every time someone has a complaint you suddenly pop up and have your say. When you first joined, everyone was real helpful to you. but when you persistently asked questions(that were already answered in the past at length) and didn't seem to like the answers, most members gave up. You didn't even make the slightest effort to fit in.

BTW, there is another forum, maybe you'll find the people there more accommodating.

Edited August 27, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Asojima]

I have tried to bring up subjects about technique, style, skill etc. and have been pretty much ignored. Their is more interest in gossip here than actually analyzing (or teaching a noobie) Sumo.

Jake

After about his third post, I concluded this is Ryukaze in sheep's clothing. Ok, now I will go back to sleep.

[Asashosakari]

After about his third post, I concluded this is Ryukaze in sheep's clothing. Ok, now I will go back to sleep.

Nah...Ryukaze might have been annoying in other ways sometimes (or did you mean Ryunokaze from way back when?), but JAB manages to combine no less than three traits I hate the most in internet users, namely paranoia, passive-aggressiveness, and a rampant victim complex. I'm not sure I've seen that combination outside of political blogs and forums before, actually, in 10+ years on the internet, so congrats for managing to become my least favourite internet poster ever, Jake.

Back to just ignoring him...

Edit: Actually, make that four traits. The egomania that leads him to expect that every little detail be spoonfed to him is probably distinct from the other three. Wow, the hits just keep on coming...

Edited August 27, 2008 by Asashosakari

[kaiguma]

Even with so much negative potential threatening this "Asashoryu preparations" thread to become completely overwhelmed by the psychoanalyis of a newish and slow-to-adapt member, I feel I should weigh in....

I think philafuji will not mind me using him as an example:

when philafuji first joined, I cringed at his every post. I tried my best to be diplomatic but his mannerisms really drove me up the wall. I stated this publicly in response to his posts and a few times via PM, with the intent to help him understand how things operate smoothly* around here. (by smoothly I mean in a kind of loosely understood natural harmony for everyone's enjoyment without holding back personal expression) but I think my frustration and anger always shone through very clearly.

I don't think those direct petitions or tortured efforts to teach and advise did a damn bit of good. There was a point when I wanted to find out where philafuji lived, and do something quite inhumane, illegal, and dangerous, like smoking pot in front of him. :-P

Now I am very happy I did not do that, and not because I fear the punishments that would have followed... no. I am really glad that philafuji made it through his own gauntlet at his own pace and figured out how to get the most out of the forum without bothering anyone or being bothered all of the time because he did not fit "the general mode." Philafuji acclimated well, and I don't think he gave up any of his own character in doing so. When he posts I read with interest. I am keen to hear his personal take on things, regardless of whether I agree. If he says something in a way that bothers me, it is pretty easy to grin and bear it. I think he's a fine fellow and why should I ever have wanted to silence him?

JAB, is very similar in my opinion.

@JAB: I think you need to approach what you read here with a lot more silence (mentally), pause and reflect before reacting to what people say, and only react once you have absorbed the 'big picture' that comes out of differences of opinion and different angles weighed in from different people with their own perception of Ozumo. And read between the lines. Technical terms might be in the way sometimes, but if you really do read all of our informal commentary every day during honbasho, including rikishi-quotes, 6 times through a full year, you would gain much more sumo knowledge on how technique is evolving, much more than you would gain from bluntly posing the question at point blank range. Zentoryu's suggestion is spot on...

@Everyone who blasts him every time he posts: if you feel the urge to blast, try to back away and come at it again with a calm attitude. Maybe the next day.

Approach it not with: how could you be so stupid/ignorant/self-absorbed/out of touch with the intent of the forum?

But rather: how can I explain to him what is missing from the way he views this information, without coming off as aggressive and unfriendly?

Yes I know I am not the poster-child for my own advice, but I have tried to stay away from so many flamy topics this IBB; so muxh that I didn't log in the whole time, and it really ha made me a lot calmer about reading things...

And to bring the topic back to only slightly off-topic: I have to say that Asashoryu has gotten only a little slack because of his foreign status but it was only in the beginning and served to backfire on him. The biggest reason he got slack was because he was the only One and filling a vital role, and people could sense he was a time-bomb in some ways... so they stayed off of his back, avoiding confrontation in the true Japanese Spirit (I am not worthy...), when they should have been thinking very seriously about how to educate him in a subtle and unobtrusive way, on what was missing from his underdeveloped hinkaku. Then a second "white" yokozuna comes along and first big kerfuffle from Asa and KABOOM, his "delicate psyche" is inside out for the world to see. Much like a newly removed foreskin. But we have discussed this elsewhere ad nauseum.

Whether Asashoryu deserves to be reprimanded for bad-mouthing the media has virtually nothing to do with his preparations from next basho, unless it go tso out of control that it caused him to miss Aki, and that would certainly spell the end.

[sorry for the typically bookish nature of my post]

Edited August 27, 2008 by kaiguma

[Jonosuke]

Oh, come on! If Asa retires, sumo will be boring! boring! boring! :-P Boring for Japanese media and even for this forum members. What you'll be talking about? Whose behavior you will be discussing here? Boring Hakuho? Kotooshu? Any Japanese rikishi? (I am not worthy...) If you look carefully forum topics the most commonly used name here is Asa.

In case you may have not noticed that this board had existed long before Asashoryu. Some of us old timers have been discussing sumo to death since the early days of SML so we must have been talking something other than Asashoryu.

There are die hard Asashoryu fans who are long time sumo fans and then there are others. If Asashoryu leaves and if that's all they are interested in and leave with him, then Ozumo really won't miss them. Sumo existed before Asashoryu and it will long after he is gone.

Sumo is not necessarily now as it is like a stream in continuum of time and space.

[Shomishuu]

Sumo is not necessarily now as it is like a stream in continuum of time and space.

I think that is what I was trying to say...about ten posts ago. (I am not worthy...)

[Mark Buckton]

it would be interesting to see a breakdown of those accessing from where - do we have that already? Also - by nationality

[Kintamayama]

Even with so much negative potential threatening this "Asashoryu preparations" thread to become completely overwhelmed by the psychoanalyis of a newish and slow-to-adapt member, I feel I should weigh in....

I think philafuji will not mind me using him as an example:

Bad example. Philafuji has been around a lot longer than most of our members. He was a long time SML member and was never, ever aggressive. No comparison whatsoever. As for the rest, I don't see anyone "blasting" JAB every time he posts.I never did, until I felt he was crossing the "line of legitimate complaints". He, OTOH, blasts the forum EVERY time he posts lately. No psychoanalysis - just simple norms of behavior on a forum he just joined.

You got it all wrong this time, sir..

Edited August 28, 2008 by Kintamayama

[hidenohana]

Then a second "white" yokozuna comes along and first big kerfuffle from Asa and KABOOM, his "delicate psyche" is inside out for the world to see. Much like a newly removed foreskin.

Your analogy doesn't work kaiguma.Asashoryu's '"delicate psyche" ',here,is comparable to the sensitive glans in a newly circumcised penis,rather than the 'newly removed foreskin'.

But we have discussed this elsewhere ad nauseum.

I don't particular doubt it.I confess to a little queasiness with the imagery,myself.

[Asashosakari]

As for the rest, I don't see anyone "blasting" JAB every time he posts.I never did, until I felt he was crossing the "line of legitimate complaints". He, OTOH, blasts the forum EVERY time he posts lately. No psychoanalysis - just simple norms of behavior on a forum he just joined.

In the end it comes down to one simple thing, for me anyway: I've never (and "never" is not hyperbole here) encountered anybody who so utterly failed to understand that it's incredibly bad form on any internet forum to demand that other people invest their time to cover for the fact that you're too lazy to a) look up easy stuff yourself after it's been pointed out that it's easy to look up, and b) do some basic investigating so that the questions you have don't require 5,000 word treatises in response. Of course, it's also not helping if you then act all annoyed because people decided to answer only those parts of your question that they felt competent to answer. Naturally that results in the only logical consequence: Now your questions get ignored altogether, both by the people whose responses you've managed to denigrate and those who observed the whole mess. There's this adage about making one's bed...

And it's actually gotten much worse since a previous attempt at swinging the cluebat two months ago. At least the original tantrums had some semblance of context and purpose, now it's just the internet equivalent of peeing on somebody else's carpet because you don't like its pattern. (Perhaps Dr. Honda has a treatment for that.)

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled Asashoryu gossip...

[kaiguma]

I hate the Sumo Forum

Kaiguma made some good points. Should also be remembered that it's a small community where many of us have known each other for years and met in real life. As with any group like that there are a lot of in-jokes and piss-taking.

Not sure whether to take that insane quote you've attributed to me as an in-joke or a piss-taking. Or something utterly different.... (In a state of confusion...)

Even with so much negative potential threatening this "Asashoryu preparations" thread to become completely overwhelmed by the psychoanalyis of a newish and slow-to-adapt member, I feel I should weigh in....

I think philafuji will not mind me using him as an example:

Bad example. Philafuji has been around a lot longer than most of our members. He was a long time SML member and was never, ever aggressive. No comparison whatsoever. As for the rest, I don't see anyone "blasting" JAB every time he posts.I never did, until I felt he was crossing the "line of legitimate complaints". He, OTOH, blasts the forum EVERY time he posts lately. No psychoanalysis - just simple norms of behavior on a forum he just joined.

You got it all wrong this time, sir..

With respect to Kinta as always, I think my point was missed here, maybe because I rambled too much. I'm not suggesting that philafuji's and JAB's behavior are comparable pound-for-pound. Every one of us will see it differently. I can deal with JAB's off-base posts a lot more easily than I was able to handle philafuji's in the beginning, aggressive or not. And I believe in the end patience and tolerance were worth it. I believe the same can probably be said in JAB's case. Patence and tolerance will do more than to simply swat down his comments. There have been much worse posters, more out of touch with the general vibe of the forum.

Re. my tasteless foreskin joke, Hidenohana is right to call me out there. I definitely put the helmet before the head on that one.

(Have to bring it back to Asashoryu somehow)

[Kintamayama]

We need another moderator bail -out here..

[Jonosuke]

We need another moderator bail -out here..

I am sure the good mod like Ran or Maneki san can do wonder here but here's a deal for you.

Since the banzuke release won't happen til the next week and they haven't done any serious training preparations up to now anyway, you can still salvage this thread by renaming it like "Preparation A: the Degenerated thread" and start a brand new one with a brimful of good solid reportage we have all accustomed to getting from you.

If anyone starts tampering with it, I promise to deep six them right away with my golden shovel.

[Randomitsuki]

We need another moderator bail -out here..

I'm not exactly sure what a bail-out is (even after looking up that word), but maybe it was a suggestion to split a couple of posts from the Asashoryuu preparations thread. So I've just done that. If people think that my action was an example of over-moderation, I might consider under-moderation in the future.

Since I didn't know how to name the newly-emerged off-topic thread, and didn't dare to ask for suggestions, I just named it after the first movie I know that contains the word "Forum". I know that this is a little weird, but the same might go for this thread.

[Kintamayama]

We need another moderator bail -out here..

I'm not exactly sure what a bail-out is (even after looking up that word),

Search has abandoned you as a friend, sir.

Webster:

Main Entry:

Pronunciation: \ˈbā-ˌlau̇t\

Function: noun

Date:1951

: a rescue from financial distress

Forget the financial.

[JAB]

I took a day to think stuff over (as suggested), and then come back and all the posts have been deleted!?!? Everyone gets a chance to berate me and I do not get a rebuttal?

Well with all the comments made, and then being erased, I cannot remember every last detail to comment on but I will try to address everyones concerns:

First of all I sincerely apologize if I have come across the wrong way, or with an attitude other than a willingness to learn about the sport / tradition of Sumo. Never my intention, but I guess that is the way I have come across. My bad.

I never meant to be "passive - aggressive" just aggressive. I do not have the time that others do here to surf the web and what not. So please forgive me for asking direct questions about Sumo, on a Sumo forum, from supposed pseudo- Sumo experts. My biggest apologies for asking "repetitious" questions, or "not reading between the lines" enough (whatever that means). I ask questions because I am curious, not because I expect to be "spoon fed" anything. What the fuck are you guys here for? If you all want to have this exclusive club attitude, then why let someone like me, who is clearly not part of the right cliche, join the forum? And to answer the question as to "why I am here if you all are assholes" is because I figure one or two of you will be kind enough to help a noobie answer questions, and a couple of you have been kind enough to do so.

I do not "refuse" to use the search option. The incident I believe someone was addressing was re: tattoo's in Sumo. I DID use the search option FYI. Perhaps I am retarded, or cannot spell, or both, but nothing came up for me. I will be the first to admit I am computer ignorant, so perhaps I screwed up. Again apologies! Does not necessarily indicate that I expect to be spoon fed does it?

As for me being "paranoid" and acting like everyone is singling me out........

Please, no one here is important enough to occupy my mind outside of the few minutes I spend here everyday, so don't flatter yourselves about making me "paranoid" (again what does that mean). As for being singled out.... a guy makes comments to the fact that I abuse drugs, and I came into his house and stole his shit etc. (I took it tongue in cheek, perhaps he was serious I don't know). I make a similar retort about how I could not have been stealing anything because I was involved with his family member. So I get berated and threatened in PM's and it is demanded that I delete and make a public apology! WTF is that?? What is good for the goose is not good for the gander!?!?!? Obviously not!! Sorry if you don't like it, but I ain't going to just sit around and let people talk shit without a little retort!

I cannot remember many of the other allegations, and wonderful comments many of you had for me, so I will be forced to let it slide under the rug so to speak.

Again I apologize for my attitude if it has offended. Like I mentioned earlier many of my colleagues who read here warned me, and I did not listen. So it seems this little forum has a bit of a rep, and you guys are doing nothing but perpetuating it. I have never been on a forum that was so unwelcoming. So egocentric (is that possible for a forum??). So exclusive. You all say how bad you want to promote Sumo, the art, the sport, the tradition. Is this your best? I sincerely hope not. I have owned my end of things. Hopefully the rest of you can learn from this and own your end as well. This snooty attitude is really a turnoff to noobie's such as me, and probably to others as well. Perhaps all of you don't care, and this is your little boys club where outsiders are welcomed as long as we do not ripple the waters and ask silly basic, stupid questions. I can happily go to other Sumo forums, but the reason I choose this one was because the level of knowledge SEEMED a bit more than other place, but perhaps knowledge is not what I should be judging on.

What can I say? The majority of the people here seem to think they have been cool with me, and I have been the ass. Perhaps a bit so, but have you all asked why that may be?? Contrary to popular belief I do have better things to do then to sit here and raise hell with you all! I will chill with the negative comments about the forum. In the meantime can you all meet me half way and tone down the douche bagg-edness when it comes to asking questions? If I ask in the wrong place (sorry if I did not see the thread about technique that I was "absent on." You guys have stuff all over the place here, so it is hard to keep up with where the right place is to post things. Again, a noobie mistake that does not really deserve the tude I have received IMO) just help me out and let me know where to post, or where to ask.

I have learned something from this all, I hope the same comes of you all. On the flip side if you all wish to perpetuate the snooty, exclusive, know it all attitude that seems to be norm..... just keep on ignoring me.

Cheers, and have a nice weekend!

Jake

[Gusoyama]

now it's just the internet equivalent of peeing on somebody else's carpet because you don't like its pattern.

That rug really tied the room together. [/lebowski]

This forum is unique, at least in my experiences. There is a lower tolerance for agression among the senior members, and a lower tolerance for stupid questions, for lack of a better term. Its not that newbies are shunned here, its just that they have to earn their place a little more before they're accepted. At least that's what i've seen. Some new people chafe at this.

[Doyobi]

Dear Jake, nothing got deleted, just one of the moderators split all the off-topic stuff into a new thread. If you took the time to read the entire forum before posting, you could have avoided being paranoid about it. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I found the snooty, exclusive, know it all attitude to be mostly on your end. Maybe I'm wrong, but if twenty other people tell you the same, please take the hint.