Evolution of Sumo

[Asashosakari]

So over 700 views, and no one has anything to add regarding the evolution of Sumo?? (Blushing...) ;-)

Just out of curiosity do the majority of people that post here actually train Sumo, or just armchair Rikishi as it were? Or is my question just boring to everyone?

:-) I suspect most people's inclination to further respond to your questions just decreased dramatically. A few points:

1) 700 views doesn't mean that 700 people have seen this thread, just that it's been clicked 700 times. I'm probably responsible for 20+ of those clicks alone, and the same goes for several other regular forum readers. Compared to other threads of the same length, 700 views isn't very much.

2) What exactly did you expect? Try going on a baseball forum and ask how baseball has evolved between 1870 and now and you're not going to get a whole lot of participation either, simply because it's a darned complicated subject and very much a niche interest. And in the case of sumo, there's also the problem - as Kuroyama already pointed out - that there's an extreme dearth of informative primary sources to begin with. (And what's there in secondary sources is often not available in English.) That your questions are so open-ended isn't helping. Which brings us to...

3) Contrary to your apparent belief that we're all sitting on tons of ready-to-post material that we just need to copy and paste in here, writing responses takes time, and usually lots of it when it comes to topics such as the ones touched on in this thread. That's why people have tried to steer you to some books so that you can get an overview of sumo history, and maybe come back with more specific questions afterwards. Nobody here is going to write a comprehensive 5,000 word treatise for your benefit just to make sure that your desired answers are in there somewhere, no matter how often you complain that your questions aren't being answered.

[JAB]

1) I understand what it means, just find it amusing that over 700 views and few have anything to offer. You mention no is is interested in writing a 5000 word thesis just for my benefit, but over 700 views indicates to me a general interest.

2) Well actually I am part of several forums on the martial arts, and there never seems to be a lack of anyone willing to type about their passion regardless of the question. It is not so open ended, I am asking for OPINIONS, not necessarily facts. I am not asking for a history lesson, but rather how people (assuming some of you actually practice Sumo) have noticed the art has evolved or stayed stagnant. If it is easier...

How have the techniques of Sumo evolved? Is that less open ended?

3) My apparent belief nothing, there is no shortage of writing, nor copy and pasting when it comes to the threads (where plenty of typing is happening!) where people are gossiping about the various schools, basho, etc. or what Asashorryu is doing in Mongolia without his family etc. etc.

No offense to anyone, but the majority of people posting here seem more interested in National Inquirer type gossip than actually discussing something fruitful. If my questions are bothersome, ignore me. I surely appreciate the time people have taken so far to answer questions, and the references to books people have offered. But if you all are REALLY interested in promoting Sumo, especially to newbies such as myself, you may want to tone down the elitist tude's.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought forums were for opinions, sharing of info, and attracting people to whatever that forum is focused on, no? If my question is so open ended, and no one is interested in typing a response, then why have people viewed the topic over 700 times????

Cheers

Jake

[Manekineko]

I am not asking for a history lesson, but rather how people (assuming some of you actually practice Sumo) have noticed the art has evolved or stayed stagnant.

You will find a greater concentration of people who actually practice sumo in Amasumo discussions part of the forum.

[Jakusotsu]

If my question is so open ended, and no one is interested in typing a response, then why have people viewed the topic over 700 times????

Simple: because people don't know what You're writing before they read it.

Posts are being read because they're new, not because they're inherently interesting.

[XiaoTan]

If my question is so open ended, and no one is interested in typing a response, then why have people viewed the topic over 700 times????

Simple: because people don't know what You're writing before they read it.

Posts are being read because they're new, not because they're inherently interesting.

Yes I am one of those, I tend to browse through all threads so as not to miss any news.

Since this topic is allready going off the cliff - :-)

I also don't see that we are particularly after gossip, but can JAB kindly explain what sort of information in between bashos he would like to see to keep up to date in countries where you do not receive any news on what's going on during bashos.

[Randomitsuki]

As to the evolution: The basic techniques were there all the time, but historically they were used to a different degree. Before the rule of "both hands down" at tachi-ai was introduced, there were much more yotsu-zumo bouts (involving belt grips). Tsuridashi (lift-out) was actually one of the most common winning techniques until the 1970s while it is pretty rare right now. Lots of that might also have to do that sumo wrestlers became heavier in the 1980s and 1990s (although this trend has reversed recently). Oshi-zumo (pushing techniques) have also existed forever, but I think there have been far less oshi specialists in the 1970s and 1980s than today. Finally, but I don't know if I can back it up with facts, there is more "pulling sumo", i.e. more sidestepping than in earlier times. I actually haven't looked at earlier kimarite distributions, so I might be wrong with this assertion, but I would be surprised if there were many rikishi of the 1970s or 1980s who had a high percentage in hatakikomi, or -otoshi kimarite. Today, however, there are a couple of rikishi for whom this style of fighting is the basic mode. Not that they reach the pinnacle of the banzuke, but it seems that you can survive in Makuuchi with pulling as your main weapon.

All these are personal observations, so take it with a grain of salt.

Now to the point of your questions receiving few answers or our inclination to spread (what you call) gossip: I think there is a misconception in your desire to compare sumo to other martial arts. I don't know how many people practice BJJ worldwide, but Ozumo is practiced by 700 people world-wide. Of course, there is amateur sumo, but some might say that it is not comparable to Ozumo (e.g. with different rules for how a bout is to be started). In other words, yes, the overwhelming majority of us are armchair philosophers who do not practice the sport itself. That's why we cannot provide first-hand information. Only the 700 wrestlers in Ozumou could give you this, but none of them speaks English. As a consequence of this situation, I believe that some points that seem to be motivating your questions (for instance the ever-popular question of what martial arts are useful "on the streets") are of no importance to the people on this Forum.

Late edit: I am pretty certain that the question of how sumo can be used "on the streets" is the last thing motivating the few amateur sumo practitioners on this Forum. In fact, the very idea that there is a physical confrontation in real-life, and one of the opponents starts relying on his sumo skills (e.g. by attempting a hearty uwatenage), makes me giggle.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Randomitsuki

[Ruziklao]

I understand what it means, just find it amusing that over 700 views and few have anything to offer.

{...}

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought forums were for opinions, sharing of info, and attracting people to whatever that forum is focused on, no? If my question is so open ended, and no one is interested in typing a response, then why have people viewed the topic over 700 times????

Personally, I do view it (and opened the thread at least three times to see the development) because I am interesting in any answer given, not in answering the question myself. And perhaps many other viewers do it similarly.

That's why we cannot provide first-hand information. Only the 700 wrestlers in Ozumou could give you this, but none of them speaks English.

Oh really? I was expecting at least some of Ozumo rikishi were speaking English, it is quite common second language after all, isn't it? :-)

[Randomitsuki]

That's why we cannot provide first-hand information. Only the 700 wrestlers in Ozumou could give you this, but none of them speaks English.

Oh really? I was expecting at least some of Ozumo rikishi were speaking English, it is quite common second language after all, isn't it? :-)

We had this discussion recently, and while I might have generalized a bit too much, the thing is that most rikishi probably aren't fluent enough to discuss such abstract matter like the evolution of sumo. Plus, no active rikishi is a member of this Forum (although former rikishi Kagamifuji was a member for a short while several years ago. And while he is American, it seemed that he got into Ozumo by strange coincidence. At his young age of 15 or 16 he did not even know very basic things about the workings of Ozumo, let alone about technical evolution).

[JAB]

Random,

Thank you bro. That is exactly what I was wondering about. Since Rikishi are considerably heavier now then back 100 years ago for instance, it makes sense that certain techniques would be emphasized over others. Your observations on pulling, lifting, and various throws is what I was wondering about. Thanks!

As for what we are all supposed to talk about inbetween Basho....take your pick. Even if the majority of you do not practice Sumo ( I don't see what difference there is if you do it professionally or on a amatuer level), can you not speculate on techniques, strategies, theories, practice etc.? More interesting than who is sleeping with whom, and why someones wife did not join them on their trip IMO.

Addressing the street issue..... it was more for illustrative purposes, not to be taken literally. Sorry if I floated off topic.

Cheers,

Jake

[Harry]

I don't know, if you throw salt on the ground and start doing shiko the street fight may end before it starts :-)

Seriously though, I wish I knew enough to answer the question. And it would be fun to try some sumo but around here there is no sumo, just your usual martial arts like judo and karatedo. I heard that there is or was a sumo club in Toronto but their website looks really out of date and I've never tried to contact them by phone.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Harry

[Ruziklao]

Oh really? I was expecting at least some of Ozumo rikishi were speaking English, it is quite common second language after all, isn't it? :-)

We had this discussion recently, and while I might have generalized a bit too much, the thing is that most rikishi probably aren't fluent enough to discuss such abstract matter like the evolution of sumo. Plus, no active rikishi is a member of this Forum (although former rikishi Kagamifuji was a member for a short while several years ago. And while he is American, it seemed that he got into Ozumo by strange coincidence. At his young age of 15 or 16 he did not even know very basic things about the workings of Ozumo, let alone about technical evolution).

Ahh, all right then, I was beginning to think you were meaning your assessment literally. Thank you for pointing me the language topic, interesting indeed, I have missed it. :-)

[Kintamayama]

Start doing any judo or wrestling moves in keiko and you are likely to feel the oyakata's shinai making contact with your rear end at speed (Moti please resist the temptation to make some lewd pun).

Solly, not following this thread - too busy gossiping. Even if I were following it, I doubt if I would be making any lewd pun, since bamboo hitting is now a serious offense and I don't joke about my salary.

[Umigame]

No offense to anyone, but the majority of people posting here seem more interested in National Inquirer type gossip than actually discussing something fruitful.

"Self-restraint... self... restraint...

Must... not... start... flame... war..."

Oh, to hell with it.

For me there is a whole lot more to the world of sumo than just technique on the dohyo. The suggestion that the only real "fruitful" discussion is around technique, and all the rest is merely gossip, is beneath ridicule.

No, I take that back. Actually it's perfect for ridicule. :-)

Personally I'd just as soon read about the evolution of topknot-tying technique, yobidashi announcing technique, the gyoji's banzuke-writing technique, chanko cooking technique, sumo kyokai's promotional technique, Takamisakari's dating technique, sekitori toto forecasting technique, etc. etc. ad infinitum.

[Jonosuke]

Actually so called 48 techniques of sumo came about during the Edo Era. Basically there were so many out of work samurai, peasants and other assorted characters around, sumo competitions were held all over the place. But there were endless episodes of fights breaking out during the competitions that the governments more or less put a cease and desist order on all sumo tournaments as they were really into controlling the natives those days.

A while later though an influential promoter or two surfaced to hold the tournaments after receiving a limited license to have one at a respected venue like a shrine and temple. They also instituted certain rules so that things would not get out of hand like drawing lines to separate the spectators from the competitors.

In the eras of Kamakura and Heian, sumo competitions were held only for the emperors and high ranked officials so there was no need for any type of rule as the competitors were all invited rank and file samurai who participated in these events frequently so they knew more or less the ropes. They had bouts in the garden of Imperial House where all guests gathered around sipping sake and tea while watching two guys going against each other.

A gyoji only appeared at the time of Nobunaga Oda (I think it was around 1570) as he was passionate about sumo and he held frequent sumo tournaments. I believe we still have a roof that was used by Nobunaga for these tournaments somewhere in Aichi Prefecture. Anyway we can say the true beginning of organized sumo as we know of it today started with Nobunaga as one can trace back Shonosuke Kimura and the House of Yoshida Tsukasa to Nobunaga's sumo tournaments.

[ryafuji]

I read in Mark Schilling's book Sumo:A Fan's Guide that the introduction of the white lines (shiriki-sen) in 1928 may have led to the decline in the 12 sori or arching techniques which are now pretty much obsolete. With the rikishi kept further apart at the tachi-ai there was less opportunity for them to get into the immediate clinch that is necessary for such techniques.

[Sasanishiki]

A gyoji only appeared at the time of Nobunaga Oda (I think it was around 1570) as he was passionate about sumo and he held frequent sumo tournaments. I believe we still have a roof that was used by Nobunaga for these tournaments somewhere in Aichi Prefecture. Anyway we can say the true beginning of organized sumo as we know of it today started with Nobunaga as one can trace back Shonosuke Kimura and the House of Yoshida Tsukasa to Nobunaga's sumo tournaments.

The tawara (bales of rice straw that form the circle of the ring) also come from this time, or at least the formal setting of the circle in which sumo is performed, came from this time as well. Prior to that there was no fixed area for the bout, meaning that sumo was much more like judo and it was about throwing an opponent rather than pushing them out of a ring. The rough and tumble street corner bouts between masterless samurai or other strongmen were conducted within an area bounded by a crowd. An opponent might be pushed into the crowd (presumably for a loss), which often led to the crowd getting angry and entering the melee (thus the worries about sumo disrupting public safety and public order).

[JAB]

Umigame,

Nice to see such discipline in the self restraint department! But to respond to your cries for attention....

While I agree that all the things you listed are a part of Sumo, and for you personally may be more interesting, the simple fact remins without technique and strategy, Sumo would be akin to a Tea ceremony. By definition Sumo is centered around the technique, strategy, and ability to perform said technique and strategy. If you are not interested, then by all means please continue to not contribute as you have been (Yawning...)

To the rest of you, thank you very much for some insight into Sumo!

In regards to the 12 Sori.... why did the addition of shiriki sen kill these techniques? What aspect of the clinch is not used know that was needed to execute these techniques?

I am not sure if records were kept 100 - 150 years ago, but is there any correlation between the weight of the wrestlers (from which I understand the average weight back 100 years ago was about 100 pounds less then the current average!?), and the techniques that were high percentage as compared to today with heavier rikishi? I would have to assume some shift in strategy. Is this what you are referring to in regards to the 12 sori techniques, was size a factor in those moves becoming obsolete?

Thanks all,

Jake :-)

[Jonosuke]

Obviously you are talking about average weight and height of rikishi now compared to, say, 100 years ago as there were certainly tall and heavy rikishi back then. But you need to consider the average height and weight of Japanese men were much less than what they are today.

In the Edo Era the promoters brought in a tall and heavy rikishi especially to barker and bring in the customers inside. More often than not these giants were not actual rikishi but only used for promotional purpose. They are what they were known as "Banner Ozeki", ranked as ozeki in banzuke but strengthwise even a Jonokuchi rikishi could have beaten them. In those days a sekiwake was often the strongest rikishi in tournaments.

We really cannot scientifically analyze kimarite from hundred years ago and now as they did not keep them back then. Most complete records we have are from newspaper reports and even "Sumo" magazine (which is the official recordkeeper of the Kyokai) hasnt' come about till 1950 or so. Most the Kyokai had back then for all the bouts were who won and lost, not how they won or lost.

If you are ever in the Kokugikan, go around the museum to check the Kyokai's record office and you will realize they are still strictly in non-digital age.

[Umigame]

While I agree that all the things you listed are a part of Sumo, and for you personally may be more interesting

Jake,

Thanks for your assent. I have high hopes for you that you will refrain from belittling other forum member's interests in the future. Because by definition, dignity is valued as highly as technique in sumo. And when I say by definition, I really mean by definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozeki#Criteri...ion_to_yokozuna

The concept of hinkaku is central to sumo. This is usually translated as "dignity" though "humility" is another good way to convey it. It's one of the things that makes sumo so fascinating and different than most sports, and it derives from the fact that sumo is a shinto ritual.

Your questions have helped draw out very interesting information from some of the veterans here and for this I applaud you. (Yawning...)

:-)

Completely off-topic, but it's Friday afternoon and I have one question for all: "Is it Beer o'Clock?"

(Hint: you can find the answer here: http://www.isitbeeroclock.com/ )

[ryafuji]

In regards to the 12 Sori.... why did the addition of shiriki sen kill these techniques? What aspect of the clinch is not used know that was needed to execute these techniques?

I am not sure if records were kept 100 - 150 years ago, but is there any correlation between the weight of the wrestlers (from which I understand the average weight back 100 years ago was about 100 pounds less then the current average!?), and the techniques that were high percentage as compared to today with heavier rikishi? I would have to assume some shift in strategy. Is this what you are referring to in regards to the 12 sori techniques, was size a factor in those moves becoming obsolete?

Thanks all,

Jake :-)

Of course the increased weight of the rikishi has played a part in the decline of such techniques but the start lines did mean the focus shifting away from mere wrestling, and towards speed and power-- getting the man out as quickly as possible.

Sori (Zori?) means to bend or arch backward. Basically it involves getting your head under your opponents armpit (nice), heaving them across your shoulders and then bending backwards so he crashes down first. Obviously not easy to do with a 150kg opponent. Kotomitsuki demonstrates izori here, but of course it's just an exhibition bout:

Thanks for that one Kintamayama!:) I very much doubt if any of the sori techniques have been used in top division bouts in the last few decades (maybe Sumo Reference can tell us).

[Harry]

The concept of hinkaku is central to sumo. This is usually translated as "dignity" though "humility" is another good way to convey it. It's one of the things that makes sumo so fascinating and different than most sports, and it derives from the fact that sumo is a shinto ritual.

Hinkaku has a couple of meanings and both apply to the present Yokozuna. Hinkaku both means "dignity, class and grace" but also "honoured, distinguished guest" and since neither Yokozuna is Japanese, both are honoured guests at the present. They should be treated as such, and they should act in that manner as well.

Words from Asa himself: 「朝青龍は、横綱にとって最も重要な資質は己を律することと品格だと思うと話しています。」

"Asashoryu said he thought self-restraint and dignity were the most important points for a yokozuna."

[JAB]

Umi - Harry,

Thanks for your concern. I always love insight from Wikipedia (A fearful rikishi...) I appreciate your wonderful lessons, thankfully I am not Japanese so I guess it applies little to me. And like you stated, look at the conversation I sparked. You're welcome!

Rya

Thanks for the reply. Good points. I appreciate the opinions!

Jake (In a state of confusion...)