Evolution of Sumo

[JAB]

I am curious to hear opinions regarding the evolution of Sumo. I understand that perhaps their is more of a cultural tie to the martial art of Sumo then with other martial systems, but none the less most martial arts, lets take Brazilian JiuJitsu for example, tend to evolve over time as new techniques are created, and new strategies are used.

So has (and if so, how) Sumo evolved over the hundreds of years it has been around? I understand that 12 techniques were added to the list of allowed throws a while back. Are rikishi limited to what is on that list? Can specific rikishi devlope specific "games" per se, such as certain BJJ players are known for their guard game, or their takedowns, or arm bars?

So at Soken is one of the goals to show everyone what you are good at, and what you are working on?

I am just curious if you guys feel Sumo has become stagnant because of its lack of evolution, or if you feel this is what makes it fascinating. Some traditions are beautiful and wonderful as they were developed and remain that way throughout time. Some arts evolve and change over time and that in turn is what makes that art beautiful and fascinating.

Thanks

Jake (In a state of confusion...)

[Jonosuke]

I will confine myself to the discussion of Ozumo apart from amateur sumo.

So first and foremost, do not go start comparing Ozumo to any other sport as it isn't simply a sport. A great deal of rituals and customs in Ozumo are steeped in the Japanese religion of Shinto. Senior rikishi still make annual visits to well known shrines regardless of what their religious background is. They cannot opt out because that is the nature of the sport. Even a yokozuna dohyo-iri is based on a Shinto ritual to calm the earth prior to an event or building a place.

There are a few books on Ozumo well worth reading if you are keen on learning it as a whole rather than fragmentary information in the place like here so I encourage you to do so. But that does not mean you stop asking here, it's just it will help you learn more background as you sound like a curious type but that is in itself a very good thing indeed.

About Soken. It is nothing more than a chance for the members of Yokozuna Deliberation Committee to see how top rikishi especially yokozuna are doing, to see how their preparation to the upcoming basho is coming along. Since it is normally held just right before the basho starts, they can appraise who is healthy and who has done sufficient training up to that point. It is held for the YDC members rather that for rikishi themselves.

[JAB]

Thanks for the response bro, but you kind of avoided the question.

I did not compare to any "sport." I compared (and only as a point of reference) Sumo to other martial arts. Many traditions have religious / spiritual practices, Sumo is not the only one.

Can you suggest such books? I have found very little in English. I do apologize for what some of you may deem silly or ignorant, but the last I checked forums such as these are not meant for the elitist to chat, but also for newbies like me to ask questions and get opinions. I am very curious about the art of Sumo as a whole indeed!

So the members of the YDC oversee the Soken? Is the performance of a Rikishi at the Soken taken into consideration when they select the Yokozuna at the next Basho? Can the YDC deny a Rikishi participation of they feel they are too injured, or porrly prepared?

Are the YDC part of the Ministry of Education?

Thanks

Jake (In a state of confusion...)

[Asashosakari]

So has (and if so, how) Sumo evolved over the hundreds of years it has been around?

That's a question that could probably prompt a few ten-thousand words in response. (In a state of confusion...) Any aspects in particular that you're thinking of, other than the ones you already mentioned in the same post?

I understand that 12 techniques were added to the list of allowed throws a while back. Are rikishi limited to what is on that list?

The kimarite list is meant to be descriptive, not normative - it's just a collection of techniques that can be bout-deciding, not a prescription of what's allowed and what isn't. That's also what prompted the expansion you mentioned. People (mainly Kyokushuzan) started winning with techniques for which no suitable descriptions existed among the then 70 kimarite, so some new techniques received "official" names and descriptions. (And while they were at it, a few more were probably added for reasons of comprehensiveness and less for reasons of "need" - I'm always surprised to recall that e.g. okuritsuridashi wasn't on the list before 2001, given that it's really a basic technique, just set up differently than usual.)

Can specific rikishi devlope specific "games" per se, such as certain BJJ players are known for their guard game, or their takedowns, or arm bars?

Calling Kaikitsune...

[JAB]

Asa

Thanks so much. That is helpful

I guess I am asking has the techniques, strategies, and skills evolved. Obviously the traditional side of things has changed little. Again as a point of reference, BJJ is evolving before our eyes. Every tournament you see someone doing something different technique, or strategy wise. Then everyone takes this back to their respective gyms, work on it, master it, and find out how to counter it. This is one of the most fascinating aspects of grappling today.

I was curious if in Sumo the same happens?

Thanks

Jake (In a state of confusion...)

[Asashosakari]

So the members of the YDC oversee the Soken? Is the performance of a Rikishi at the Soken taken into consideration when they select the Yokozuna at the next Basho? Can the YDC deny a Rikishi participation of they feel they are too injured, or porrly prepared?

You're overestimating the significance of the soken performances. It's mostly a private* practice session for the benefit of the YDC, and only takes place three times a year (before each Tokyo basho). Most YDC members are rather busy members of society with neither the time nor the inclination to seek out regular keiko sessions, so these events serve as an opportunity for them to watch everyone at once and stay apprised of what's going on in the top ranks.

Of course it's possible that a rikishi makes such a negative impression during a soken that it continues to stick with the YDC members, but in general soken is just for informational purposes, not a decision-making help.

* Although the May soken has also been open to the public for the last few years.

[Asojima]

Here are some good sources of basic information. It is only a small set, but they can get a beginner up and running.

NSK Beginners Guide

Japan Sumo Assn (NSK) site. Beginning sumo section.

LA 08 Sumo Intro

Good 20 minute video. See also the picks on the left side.

The Oyakata Gallery

Info on heyas and the oyakata who lead the NSK

Sumo Fan Mag Archive

Archive of a broad range of articles on sumo.

Le Monde de Sumo

See the English translations. A lot of excellent info

SFM Glossary

The sumoforum glossary of Japanese terms

Banzuke.com

Years of videos of the hon basho matches.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Asojima

[Jonosuke]

You know the problem with sumo books is that they get old pretty quickly and as you pointed out they go out of print after a few years. If it's still around I can recommend a Mina Hall's book as it covers general aspects of sumo. I also know Dave Patek wrote a book about Akebono which may be of interest as regardless what he has done after he left Ozumo, he was a good decent yokozuna having the spirit of yokozuna.

I think you don't want to get bogged down so much on Soken as it only is a series of practice training sessions, staged for the members of YDC, other interested oyakata and media. It's only open once a year to the public and it is not much of significance. You may get a report saying Asashoryu got beaten 7 out of 10 training sessions there but once the next basho opens, more than likely he will go on to win 10 straight bouts. It really does not mean much.

YDC members are appointed by the Kyokai directors based on certain recommendations from Kyokai's Operation Committee members who include external members like politicians. YDC members come from basically four sources - corporate business executives (likely presidents or vice presidents of major entities), media (newspapers and TV), academics (usually chancellors) and arts (kabuki actors, movie directors, singers or even a screen writer).

They do not receive any renumeration except transportation costs and meals as well as basho tickets. Their job is to assess yokozuna conduct - to advise, caution, encourage or recommend retirement and to request or deny the yokozuna promotion of ozeki. They can comment on ozeki or other rikikshi's performance but that is not really in their mandate. YDC is only an advisory committee and they don't have any actually power to enforce their rulings. For instance the Kyokai executives could promote or deny a promotion going against YDC decision. They basically provide an external "educated" voice reflecting the social mores as some Japanese still think the sumo kyokai is made up of old fat farts with a junior high education.

The Kyokai (NSK or JSA or whatever you want to call it) is under a jurisdiction of the Ministry of Education and Science as they are recognized as a for-profit institution with the primary mission of enriching and educating Japanese public of uniquely Japanese culture. They have by-laws that they need to adhere to and must act accordingly especially regarding to electing their officials, conduct of its members and collection of the donation from individuals and groups. Their annual budget must be tabled and approved by Japan's parliament, though this is mostly given without much fuss.

[JAB]

Thanks.

The Kyokai is the ruling "board" of Sumo then? They promote, demote etc.?

Thanks

Jake

[Jejima]

I have read many of the sumo books written in English (including Mina Hall and Dave Patek's mentioned previously - I've also had the pleasure of meeting both of these authors), and some are better than others.

Mina's gives a very good overview of the sport, and has some more detailed stuff about the Hawai'ians. (Mina comes from Hawai'i). Dave's book focusses mostly on Akebono, rather than sumo in general. Although information on sumo is given (naturally, due to the subject!), the book is more about the 'man', his family, background etc.

As a good introduction book to sumo (and I think it would answer many of your questions) that is still a favourite of mine is 'Grand Sumo: Fully Illustrated' (Written by Seigoro Kitade, translated by Deborah Kitade). There are a few factual errors in it, some due to mistranslation, and others due to outdatedness, but it certainly gives a good overview.

Here is a book review on the book from a few years back.

By the way, the book mentioned at the end of the article, 'Joy of Sumo' is not one that I would recommend now to a new-comer. It is written from a 'couch potato fan's' point-of-view (rather than an 'expert's'), and gives whimsical nick-names to the rikishi. Unfortunately, all of those rikishi are now long since retired, and so for a newcomer to the sport, not really that relevant.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Jejima

[Kuroyama]

Thanks for the response bro, but you kind of avoided the question.

I did not compare to any "sport." I compared (and only as a point of reference) Sumo to other martial arts. Many traditions have religious / spiritual practices, Sumo is not the only one.

It may not be possible to answer your question. BJJ is of relatively recent invention, as is the martial art from which it derived. Not only is it not surprising that it continues to evolve, it would be odd if it didn't. There is furthermore a reasonably comprehensive picture of where it came from and how it developed over the years still in living memory. The same is not true for sumo, where pre-20th century techniques can only be guessed at from old drawings and prints, many of which are not terribly informative.

With sumo its martial art side isn't separable from the Shinto side. It wasn't imported into a spiritual community (as with Shaolin Kung-fu) or develop spiritual practices as an aid or adjunct, as I suspect is the case with many other Chinese martial arts. It originated as a purely ritual combat within a religious context, not as a practical fighting style, and evolved from there into a sport. It still isn't, I would guess, at all practical for street fighting since its sole aim is to achieve a single takedown or expulsion from the ring, and many techniques that would be useful for actual combat, such as strikes with a closed fist, are illegal.

[JAB]

So the techniques pre 20th century were different? I think you gleam an idea of the techniques as they were passed down generation to generation. There was no halt to Sumo practice through the ages was there? Regardless I think every art is constantly evolving, regardless of our intent.

I would present an argument that it is not useful on the street. I have my students play Sumo every now and then, where the goal is to achieve a fast takedown, or force them out of the dohyo. This trains situational and spatial awareness, constant force with someone else trying to throw you, and forces you to keep balanced and avoid sacrifice throws.

Palm strikes are just as wicked as fist strikes.

So I would not choose Sumo as my first option for reality based training, but I tell you what it is 100times more realistic than a lot of the shit out their posing as martial arts! At least in Sumo there is contact with uncooperative partners!

Thanks for the book suggestions as well guys!

I would really like to hear more about your opinions on the evolution of the sport though.

Cheers

Jake (Sign of approval...)

[Jonosuke]

It originated as a purely ritual combat within a religious context, not as a practical fighting style, and evolved from there into a sport. It still isn't, I would guess, at all practical for street fighting since its sole aim is to achieve a single takedown or expulsion from the ring, and many techniques that would be useful for actual combat, such as strikes with a closed fist, are illegal.

Well closed fist is illlgegal now but the legend has it that it originated from Nominosukune kicking Toumanokehaya to death so if you can believe the legend it had a violent beginning.

Actually quite a bit of 'samurai" spirit or Bushido was brought into Ozumo and the essence was crystallized by Futabayama. Basically it implies the dohyo is the battleground of life and death and once you are off, you need to behave yourself in a gentlemanly fashion by showing consideration to others including your opponent.

One of the reasons displaying excessive emotion and things like clenched fist is discouraged is because a sumo bout is considered to be a combat between two samurai. In this scenario the winner is presumed to have just killed his opponent. If you are a decent samurai, you don't display much joy over the fallen opponent, like clenching your fist over another you just killed.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Jonosuke

[hidenohana]

Palm strikes are just as wicked as fist strikes.

I sincerely doubt that JAB.

In a punch the energy from a punch is transferred to the opponent in a more concentrated fashion through the hard bony knuckles while in a palm strike the energy is cushioned and distributed over a larger area through the fleshy palms.

Feel free to compare...

Asashoryu:

Jack Dempsey:

edit:

Though of course in a palm strike to the head you don't have to worry about breaking your hand on your opponent's skull

A very real possibility if you punch somebody without handwrapping or gloves.

Edited June 11, 2008 by hidenohana

[Asojima]

Another very good, but a bit dated, source of basic sumo lore:

Takamiyama

[Sasanishiki]

Actually quite a bit of 'samurai" spirit or Bushido was brought into Ozumo and the essence was crystallized by Futabayama. Basically it implies the dohyo is the battleground of life and death and once you are off, you need to behave yourself in a gentlemanly fashion by showing consideration to others including your opponent.

Arguably this only became noticeable/important after and because of the publication of Nitobe Inazo's book Bushido: The Soul of Japan in 1900. Reflections on bushido were often considered in light of this work which, although in English, in turn influenced the way Japan viewed its own martial tradition (often in a reflexive way).

I think we need to be careful of thinking about sumo developing sui generis. The way that sumo (as a profession/guild) viewed itself depended on the social and political norms of the time. In the middle Edo period there was a real struggle to be accepted by tokugawa authorities. Later, after 1791, the viewing of sumo by the Shogun gave the profession legitimacy and it flourished. However, come the end of the feudal period and the rise of modernisation in the Meiji period, sumo was seen as anachronistic to modern Japan and a feudal throwback. Sumo struggled in a time when Japan looked to the West for ideas on modernisation, and when Western ideas on sport, the human body and athleticism influenced Meiji intellectuals and politicians. Sumo then worked to reinvent itself in terms of how it was perceived, eventually finding a niche as a native way of training the body. Its status was also helped by the emperor viewing sumo some time in the 1880s (1884 perhaps?) and again the legitimacy of a ruler enjoying the sport. By 1909 sumo had emphasised 'ancient' traditions to help link the image of ozumo back to a long history of sumo being performed for different reasons. In the same year sumo moved into the first Kokugikan and became acknowledged as the (one and only) kokugi, or 'national skill', of Japan. This is just some fo the evolution of sumo.

(I owe much of my knowledge here to a few Japanese sources but also academic works in English by Kenji Tierney and Lee Thompson, both of whom have looked at the modernisation and nationalisation of sumo.)

[JAB]

Hidenohana,

Well without getting into a long debate I would have to say that over the last 17 years of training I can honestly say both palm and fist strikes hit about equally as hard! Now I am a newbie to grappling, but striking I think I have an okay hold on. The mechanics of striking are the same regardless of the "tool" at the end of the arm. Comparing Asa and Dempsey is like comparing apples to oranges really. Asa does not generate power like a boxer so naturally he will not hit as hard. Also a fist can cut, and do more superficial damage, but as you stated a palm is safer with just as much percussive force. Two different types of force and power.

Again I am not trying to argue, as I feel that Sumo is not the "best" art suited for the street, I can just see some application that would be useful.

Anyhoo....

Okay, trying to stimulate this topic a bit more guys.....

One of the reasons I asked about the evolution of technique, and strategy is because I have noticed (and I think I read somewhere many moons ago) that the rikishi of yesteryear (100-150 years ago) that I see pics of are much leaner, stronger, and lighter than the wrestlers we see today (with few exceptions). So to one degree or another something has had to change, no?

Thoughts, opinions, ideas......

Cheers

Jake :-(

[JAB]

Oh, any suggestions for where to get the books you all have been listing? I have the Takamiyama book (actually found a signed copy on the web for next to nothing! :-().

Has anyone read the Chad Rowan book put out just recently?

Thanks,

Jake (Sakke...)

[Kuroyama]

Oh, any suggestions for where to get the books you all have been listing? I have the Takamiyama book (actually found a signed copy on the web for next to nothing! :-().

Has anyone read the Chad Rowan book put out just recently?

Thanks,

Jake (Sakke...)

Try http://www.alibris.com.

[Jejima]

Has anyone read the Chad Rowan book put out just recently?

Yes, that is the book (previously mentioned) about Akebono, written by Dave Patek.

[Asojima]

Has anyone read the Chad Rowan book put out just recently?

Yes, that is the book (previously mentioned) about Akebono, written by Dave Patek.

Mark Panek

Available from Amazon. There are links to other sumo related books at the bottom of the Amazon page.

Edited June 13, 2008 by Asojima

[Jejima]

Has anyone read the Chad Rowan book put out just recently?

Yes, that is the book (previously mentioned) about Akebono, written by Dave Patek.

Mark Panek

(Showing respect...) Yes, of course (I am not worthy...)

[JAB]

Thanks guys!

Any opinions on my other post?

Cheers,

Jake (I am not worthy...)

[Nanami]

One of the reasons displaying excessive emotion and things like clenched fist is discouraged is because a sumo bout is considered to be a combat between two samurai. In this scenario the winner is presumed to have just killed his opponent. If you are a decent samurai, you don't display much joy over the fallen opponent, like clenching your fist over another you just killed.

Ok, this helps me better understand the why there is such an emphasis on not showing emotion. I also appreciate how sumo appears to be more of a cultural expression rather than a "pure sport." (Annoyed...)

[JAB]

So over 700 views, and no one has anything to add regarding the evolution of Sumo?? :-) ;-)

Just out of curiosity do the majority of people that post here actually train Sumo, or just armchair Rikishi as it were? Or is my question just boring to everyone?

Thanks

Jake