blame NSK on their pressure on rikishi to have a fake match?

[serv]

and it would be hard on most Japanese as an insult to have not one, but two Yokozunas from historical rivals, Mongolians. :P

Isn't hard for Mongolians to observe how best young wrestlers are packing theirs bags and leave Mongolia? Best wrestlers who don't care about national sport - they simply abandon own tradition and go to historical rivals, Japanese. They wear japanese clothes, hairstyle etc. Isn't this an insult for heirs of Hubilai Khaan ? ;-)

not at all. there are plenty of young wrestlers in the Nation. For example, Asashoryu's brother got his Mongolian Yokozuna rank this summer's competition. I don't think there's a single successful Japanese in Mongolian national wrestling to your answer. it's a wise to use the opportunity in Japan to dominate in their Ozumo. because only the best stay in Ozumo and become their Yokozunas. It's a natural selection just like in Darwin's law. in Ozumo, there isn't any tsunami except NSK unstable promises. :P

And Mongolians are proud of the young wrestlers for their attempts. Be a Roman in Rome. If you wanna be the one of the greatness, u got to wear japanese kimonos, do their hairstyle, etc. okay i think it's enough. otherwise the Admins wouldn't like the arguement.

p.s. on some history and culture of Mongolia, Mongolians only pay some respect to Hubilai Khan just because of his grandfather, Chingis Khaan and the attempt to the Japan. However, Hubilai was raised with Chinese influence so he moved Mongolian capital city to Beejing, and it's the beginning of the collapse of the Mongol empire. For that reason, most of the Mongolians dislike him. and if u think there's an insult for heirs of Hubilai Khaan, that's an excellent news for rest of the Mongolian. And most Mongolians dislike the inner Mongolians in China for some historical reasons too. but it's way off the topic. sorry. :P

Edited July 26, 2006 by serv

[Shimpu]

Only things we love about him were extending the Mongol Empire and trying to kick the japanese asses on their icelands. :P

... Mongol Empire ;-) Look at Japanese "Icelands" and your empire now... :-) anyway, good to talk about old good times...

[serv]

japanese government are trying to rent some land in Mongolia cuz there are too many ppl in Japan. and, 1930s war on Mongolia was a bad thing for that time. i don't know if Mongolians gonna lease a peice of land to Japanese. probably not, there's a Mongolian saying that, even if the God asks you a small land for a neddle, don't give the God the land piece.

[Shimpu]

japanese government are trying to rent some land in Mongolia cuz there are too many ppl in Japan. and, 1930s war on Mongolia was a bad thing for that time. i don't know if Mongolians gonna lease a peice of land to Japanese. probably not, there's a Mongolian saying that, even if the God asks you a small land for a neddle, don't give the God the land piece.

:-) This is a good one, where have you read this ? Probably in Sakyo Komatsu's "Japan Sinks". Ok, enough of this crap. This leads nowhere (or maybe to discussion about supermongolians). Over. ;-)

[Zeokage]

2 consecutive yusho... is the basic guideline.

If I remember correctly, it's also possible with yusho equivalent performances. A rikishi must also act like a Yokozuna in and out of the dohyo. Mannerisms, ceremony and the like. It was that last thing that was lacking that stopped Konishiki from becoming Yokozuna despite 2 yusho in a row.

If that last fact is incorrect, please let me know.

wow, that's very harsh. poor Konishiki.

Yes, it is quite incorrect. No "poor Konishiki" in my view. Well, maybe a tiny little bit.

It wasn't two yusho in a row, it was 13-2 yusho, 12-3 3rd place, 13-2 yusho with quite poor competition rank-wise, as may see yourself by clicking on the links.

I thought I might have been wrong... Wasn't there a debate about why he wasn't promoted to a rank at some point?

[sekitori]

Shoryu has many signs of a psychopath. His demeanor is much so, with these hunt downs of rikishi who dare to beat him, even slamming Sekiryu into the wall after getting defeated by him in keiko. Doesn't cope well with disappointments. If there is one rikishi who needs to be the boss, it is Shoryu. He shines and is happy when people worship him, what happens when things go wrong? Well he is very strong rikishi with massive will to win and the work he has done to gain his success if formidable so we don't see that side much. He wants to feel like he is the best of the best and the one to be worshipped. Do you really think there is room for "welcome to yokozuna!" in his pride? He enjoys going overboard at keiko. He enjoys humiliating rikishi. He sure enjoys being the sole yokozuna and wants to remain unchallenged. Or maybe he is really a different kind of guy and he welcomes Hakuho to yokozuna without an insult to his gigantic ego. I only get bad vibs out of him. Maybe he is totally opposite, caring and nice human.... ;-)

A psychopath is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as "a person with an antisocial personality , especially one manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior". Since no one has ever accused Asashoryu of being perverted, criminal, or amoral, I guess the only description that can apply is aggressive.

Now consider this. He has leapfrogged over 800 people to be at the very top of an extremely demanding profession where aggressiveness is vital. He's been alone there for a very long time. Compounding that, his every move is being followed by fans and the press. If someone well below his rank happens to defeat him, they get a gold star. If someone of a high rank beats him, people start asking what's wrong with him. He is expected to be perfect, not only on the dohyo but everywhere else. He lives in a virtual fish bowl.

I can understand why he acts the way he does. He is number one and he desperately wants to stay that way. He has a huge ego and he will do everything he can to satsify that ego. The primary thing of course, is to win yushos. I'm sure that competitive edge also applies to keiko. He just doesn't like to lose--to anyone. He also must feel that he has to protect himself from those whose job is to find fault with him--the media. At least he talks to them, I'm sure at the urging of the NSK. Talking to the press after a loss must be extremely difficult for him. But he's still better at that than some rikishis. I won't name names at present. :-) There are elite athletes in some sports who absolutely refuse to speak to the media at all, win or lose.

Living up to being number one is bad enough. But when it appears that millions of people are waiting for you to make any kind mistake, it can become overwhelming. Although it may not exactly apply here, the word "paranoid" comes to mind. It's as if you feel that everyone is out to get you. And you react by showing aggressiveness, much of which you've learned in sumo. That sounds to me much more like defensive than psychopathic behavior. I would guess that without the pressure of sumo competition, Asashoryu's personality probably is no different than most of ours--except of course, for that big ego.

One good thing, though. As far as I know, Asashoryu has never beaten up any reporters. The same thing cannot be said for all rikishis. Again, I will not name anyone specific. :-)

[serv]

i do lots of stereotyping, which is a bad thing. i'm sorry if i offended someone. i think this topic is going too far... haha

[serv]

:-) This is a good one, where have you read this ? Probably in Sakyo Komatsu's "Japan Sinks". Ok, enough of this crap. This leads nowhere (or maybe to discussion about supermongolians). Over. ;-)

It's been off topic for awhile. Let's stop it here. sorry if i offended ya. hope u r all fine. back to the topic...

[serv]

It wasn't two yusho in a row, it was 13-2 yusho, 12-3 3rd place, 13-2 yusho with quite poor competition rank-wise, as may see yourself by clicking on the links.

thank you for the links! This's a great website, it has the kind of info I've been looking for a long time. Thank you again.

[ilovesumo]

This is again the kind of discussion that leaves one waving a white flag in complexion. Well not really, it is again a classic example of bout that was bound to be called untrue if Hakuho won. The surprising part is that Hakuho actually is Shoryu's caliber in face to face bouts but noo...still if Shoryu loses, he just let it go.

Shoryu has many signs of a psychopath. His demeanor is much so, with these hunt downs of rikishi who dare to beat him, even slamming Sekiryu into the wall after getting defeated by him in keiko. Doesn't cope well with disappointments. If there is one rikishi who needs to be the boss, it is Shoryu. He shines and is happy when people worship him, what happens when things go wrong? Well he is very strong rikishi with massive will to win and the work he has done to gain his success if formidable so we don't see that side much. He wants to feel like he is the best of the best and the one to be worshipped. Do you really think there is room for "welcome to yokozuna!" in his pride? He enjoys going overboard at keiko. He enjoys humiliating rikishi. He sure enjoys being the sole yokozuna and wants to remain unchallenged. Or maybe he is really a different kind of guy and he welcomes Hakuho to yokozuna without an insult to his gigantic ego. I only get bad vibs out of him. Maybe he is totally opposite, caring and nice human.... :-)

Psychopath........ :-)

Guess it would be useful to look through serv's mongolian eyes at the sumo world. The mongolian pride seemes amazing to me and I don't want to believe that Shoryu nor Hakuho could live a life as egoist inside of this world.

edit: Now that I read my writing again, I guess I again don't write understandable. ;-)

They are aliens in Japan, but the most successful guys in ozumo. Sure, they are rivals, but brothers of mongolian pride, no?!

Edited July 26, 2006 by ilovesumo

[ilovesumo]

(Laughing...) This is a good one, where have you read this ? Probably in Sakyo Komatsu's "Japan Sinks". Ok, enough of this crap. This leads nowhere (or maybe to discussion about supermongolians). Over. ;-)

EY! PSSSSSSSSSST! I am reading it now!!!

But I am at the passage the guy is talking to an australian to allow the japanese people to come there. Hope to finish it tomorrow in the train home to mommy :-)

(GREAT BOOK know, :-) :-)

[serv]

Shoryu has many signs of a psychopath. His demeanor is much so, with these hunt downs of rikishi ...

...He has leapfrogged over 800 people to be at the very top of an extremely demanding profession where aggressiveness is vital. He's been alone there for a very long time. Compounding that, his every move is being followed by fans and the...

I went to the same highschool with Asashoryu back in Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia. And our apartments are also close by in the town too. That doesn't mean i know him personally, but I do know his highschool reputation on his determined character among the students and kids. he's been always on the top in sports during his highschool. among the students, he was regarded as the most brave, strong, hardworking kid in sport-vice and bully & bossy boy in the street-vice. kids from other highschool also know his brave fighting characters well. He's been many champions of the youth wrestling. So, i think it's a part of his character that doesn't want to lose the match, doesn't fear whoever his opponent, and does have true hard working sportsmanship to reach his goal. we can say that he doesn't like to send a msg to other rikishi that it's okay to beat him. He wants to be on the top and that's why there's only one Yokozuna in the sumo now. He has the most powerful mental strenght than other rikishi. that helps him stay on the top.

All of these characters fuel him and keep his top status in the sumo. When I watch the bashos on either the internet cast or NHK TV, I see many Japanese fans disliking him even he wins the bout. I don't think it's because he has a huge guts and ego, or whatever you guys call it. I don't think it's because of his inappropriate or bad behavior. I think it's typical thing for foriegn yokozunas in the sumo.

i believe all these "negative" characters you guys mentioning actually helped him to reach the Yokozuna rank in the sumo. He didn't get these characters after he became Yokozuna. I can see he's acting more like Yokozuna. he looks calm and humble and respect other rikishi. as he gets more experience and time passes, he turns his "bad" behaivs into positive ones of a yokozuna.

Edited July 26, 2006 by serv

[Jakusotsu]

First this:

As I watch and analyze the last sumo between Asashoryu and Hakuho on the 15th day, i come into thinking that Asashoryu gave up the last match with Hakuho on purpose, hoping that NSK would promote Hakuho to a Yokozuna.

...than that:

So, i think it's a part of his character that doesn't want to lose the match, doesn't fear whoever his opponent, and does have true hard working sportsmanship to reach his goal. we can say that he doesn't like to send a msg to other rikishi that it's okay to beat him. He wants to be on the top and that's why there's only one Yokozuna in the sumo now. He has the most powerful mental strenght than other rikishi. that helps him stay on the top.

Have You just managed to completely contradict Yourself? (Applauding...)

[Fay]

First this:

As I watch and analyze the last sumo between Asashoryu and Hakuho on the 15th day, i come into thinking that Asashoryu gave up the last match with Hakuho on purpose, hoping that NSK would promote Hakuho to a Yokozuna.

...than that:

So, i think it's a part of his character that doesn't want to lose the match, doesn't fear whoever his opponent, and does have true hard working sportsmanship to reach his goal. we can say that he doesn't like to send a msg to other rikishi that it's okay to beat him. He wants to be on the top and that's why there's only one Yokozuna in the sumo now. He has the most powerful mental strenght than other rikishi. that helps him stay on the top.

Have You just managed to completely contradict Yourself? (Applauding...)

I don't mind my babble of yesterday ....

or as we say in german: Was st

[Guest Quentooshu]

I went to the same highschool with Asashoryu back in Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia. And our apartments are also close by in the town too. That doesn't mean i know him personally, but I do know his highschool reputation on his determined character among the students and kids.

This should give us some kind of an insight into the fishbowl that Asashoryu lives in. Imagine, if you will, what it would be like to be described by your classmates from high school. And I'm not talking about the people you hung out with and ate lunch with, but the people you never saw, never talked to, and wouldn't recognize if you saw them on the street.

I'm not saying that any of this applies to our friend Serv. I don't know how well he knows Asashoryu. But I am saying that I don't expect to see any of my former high school classmates talking about my reputation and character on any websites. And as a side note - that's quite the relief!

But for Asashoryu, not only is that happening, but that kind of scrutiny is a common everyday occurance.

[Guest Quentooshu]

First this:

As I watch and analyze the last sumo between Asashoryu and Hakuho on the 15th day, i come into thinking that Asashoryu gave up the last match with Hakuho on purpose, hoping that NSK would promote Hakuho to a Yokozuna.

...than that:

So, i think it's a part of his character that doesn't want to lose the match, doesn't fear whoever his opponent, and does have true hard working sportsmanship to reach his goal. we can say that he doesn't like to send a msg to other rikishi that it's okay to beat him. He wants to be on the top and that's why there's only one Yokozuna in the sumo now. He has the most powerful mental strenght than other rikishi. that helps him stay on the top.

Have You just managed to completely contradict Yourself? (Applauding...)

I don't mind my babble of yesterday ....

or as we say in german: Was st

[Fay]

On the other hand...this could be evidence of sheer genius! If we follow the late great Douglas Adams view on such things, holding to contradictory pieces of information and having them both be equally true is a sign of high intelligence!

or as already our great german philosopher Hegel said

thesis - antithesis = synthesis

Sorry (Applauding...)

Edited July 27, 2006 by Fay

[Bataa]

i take that as an offence shimpu.

and serv lets not talk about off topic history about khubilai khan and 1930's war here please, cuz thats leading some of us to a natiniolistic debate here.

[Joeblack]

Asashoryu actually put 100% of his effort on the bout and he lost. It's nothing new. Hakuho has the physique of Takanohana, and Asashoryu got overpowered by Takanohana before. Similarly, Hakuho just over powered Asashoryu in the bout. Asashoryu needs to become more muscular to have more strength to counter Hakuho. He needs more workout.

[Erkhembulgan]

and it would be hard on most Japanese as an insult to have not one, two Yokozunas from historical rivals, Mongolians. :P

Isn't hard for Mongolians to observe how best young wrestlers are packing theirs bags and leave Mongolia? Best wrestlers who don't care about national sport - they simply abandon own tradition and go to historical rivals, Japanese. They wear japanese clothes, hairstyle etc. Isn't this an insult for heirs of Hubilai Khaan ? :-P

Interesting debates here... (Holiday feeling...) I might sound redundant but want to add my opinion. First, all foreigners in professional sumo had only financial interests when they joined it. It's the only reason why mongolian kids are going to Japan.

Second, I do not think that best wrestlers left our national sport in order to join ozumo.

Well, IMO under proper training Asa and Hakuho could become Lions (ozeki) in mongol boh; Asasekiryu, Ama, Tokitenku - Nachin (maegashira). There are thousands of young wrestlers competing in different levels and only ~30 in Japan.

Third, Hubilai khan already insulted his heirs by wearing chinese clothes... (Applauding...)

[Hakuyobaku]

I won't go into this mongol thing duscussion, But Kaikitsune's depiction of Asashoryu's mental side reminded me of Bobby Fischer's. All the same same same.. What do you think?

[sekitori]

Asashoryu actually put 100% of his effort on the bout and he lost. It's nothing new. Hakuho has the physique of Takanohana, and Asashoryu got overpowered by Takanohana before. Similarly, Hakuho just over powered Asashoryu in the bout. Asashoryu needs to become more muscular to have more strength to counter Hakuho. He needs more workout.

He lost only after his yusho win had already been decided to someone who was slightly more motivated to win the bout. The most important thing is that he was the one who held the Emperor's Cup. He's more muscular than any present rikishi around and I think he's about as strong as any of them, no matter how big they may be. He's also extremely quick and athletic. If the yusho already hadn't been decided, the result could have been quite different. More muscular? More strength? (In a state of confusion...)

[Guest Quentooshu]

I won't go into this mongol thing duscussion, But Kaikitsune's depiction of Asashoryu's mental side reminded me of Bobby Fischer's. All the same same same.. What do you think?

Interesting analogy. Both rose to greatness at a young age (Fischer held the record for youngest Grandmaster for decades), both were far ahead of their contemporaries at their chosen skill - possibly the farthest ahead of the pack ever, both are prone to some very odd behaviors outside of their arena.

As far as I know Asashoryu never refused to show up for a championship match and isn't an anti-semite, so the comparisons start breaking down pretty quickly, though.

I'm reminded of the episode of House, M.D. with the jazz trumpeter who could recognize the greatness in both House and himself with his "one thing" speech. Thinking it through, I'm more of the mind that Fischer and Asashoryu share the broad common traits of a person who has achieved the greatness that they both clearly have done. But I bet that there's a better analogy to Asashoryu out there than Fischer.

[sumofan]

I won't go into this mongol thing duscussion, But Kaikitsune's depiction of Asashoryu's mental side reminded me of Bobby Fischer's. All the same same same.. What do you think?

Three are some parallells, but last I read, Fischer had all fillings removed from his teeth because he was convinced they were receiving radiowaves that affected his brain.

Madness and brilliance can go perfectly hand in hand.

Thus far, I have witnessed no such insanity with Asa, just a firm belief that there is room for only 1 top dog.

[AsaMoe]

There has been said so many offtopics, so i am free to add some:

* Europeans do not know a little bit of Mongolian history (about Dschingis Khan and his achievenesses, his sons and grandsons, the four empires, the chinese and the propaganda...)

* when i first realized, that Mongolia was totally different from what i thought, i moved my (internet) location to Ulan Bator. If this is offending someone, i would change it back to Stuttgart, but i feel myself as a ambassador to mongolia in Germany

back to ozumo

* i dont think, that there are plenty of mongolian wrestlers, who could have also become Yokuzuna in ozumo.

* Of course Asashoryu's most important goal is 32, but still being the sole Yokuzuna has merrits for him. I also think, that he is more Japanese, then you may think.