blame NSK on their pressure on rikishi to have a fake match?

[serv]

People talk about the NSK's decision on not to promote Hakuho to a Yokozuna after the Nagoya Basho.

As I watch and analyze the last sumo between Asashoryu and Hakuho on the 15th day, i come into thinking that Asashoryu gave up the last match with Hakuho on purpose, hoping that NSK would promote Hakuho to a Yokozuna.

on the last match between them, Asashoryu realy lifted Hakuho up for a couple of times and just put him back on the ground. I saw Asa was having many chances to defeat Hakuho during their match however Asa just wouldn't do his sumo. He has a kind of sumo that's aggressive and always steps forward. When he gets the mawashi grab of his opponent, he never stop his pushing nor just stand on one place for a time. And Asashoryu is not a Yokozuna who takes his opponent on him so willingly as he's falling down.

When Hakuho was celebrating his Ozeki in Mongolia, Asashoryu told the people in Hakuho's Ozeki party publicly that "I'll give a gift of sixty nine to Hakuho" and he smiled. In Mongolia, they have Russian 4-wheel jeep and Mongolians call it "Sixty Nine." But, I don't think Asa really thinking to give Hakuho a cheap, ugly, and uncomfortable Russian jeep. (no offence to Russians) And the people in the party interpreted Asa's words that he'll help Hakuho to take the 69th Yokozuna.

...

Edited July 27, 2006 by serv

[Guest Karatoshi]

Asashoryu would not throw away a zensho

[aderechelsea]

bull....

[Jakusotsu]

I must admit, seeing Asashoryu lifting Hakuho I was immediately reminded of those staged exhibition bouts like the Taka-Waka-Bros used to entertain the audience with. But then again, Asa simply won't do such a thing consciously. Neither throwing away a zensho (as Karatoshi said), nor insulting Hakuho with such an act of disrespect. Certainly no 100% all-guns-blazing Asashoryu sumo, but still gachinko enough in my eyes.

[serv]

bull....

shit??? hahaha

[serv]

I must admit, seeing Asashoryu lifting Hakuho I was immediately reminded of those staged exhibition bouts like the Taka-Waka-Bros used to entertain the audience with. But then again, Asa simply won't do such a thing consciously. Neither throwing away a zensho (as Karatoshi said), nor insulting Hakuho with such an act of disrespect. Certainly no 100% all-guns-blazing Asashoryu sumo, but still gachinko enough in my eyes.

I have no Japanese. And for every Japanese word you used in your msg, I don't know what it means. but i got your idea. As a Mongolian, I know much better about Mongolian wrestling "tradition" of fake matches. Sometimes they need to do some "fakes" in order to win more. And we as Mongolians don't really have such understanding of insulting one with such an act of disrespect that u meant. i think that only used to be famous for Japanese Samurai culture. It's very common in Mongolian National wrestling, buh, and it happens every major competition including Naadam festival in Mongolia.

Edited July 26, 2006 by serv

[serv]

Asashoryu would not throw away a zensho

Zensho is nothing next to another Mongolian Yokozuna in Japanese Grand Sumo for Asa and for the Mongolians. u won't understand it unless u were a Mongolian... one day zensho is really nothing to the Yokozuna himself too.

Edited July 26, 2006 by serv

[Shimpu]

Asashoryu would not throw away a zensho

Zensho is nothing next to another Mongolian Yokozuna in Japanese Grand Sumo for Asa and for the Mongolians. u won't understand it unless u were a Mongolian... one day zensho is really nothing to the Yokozuna himself too.

As for me it doesn't fit to Asa's "I'm on the way to the greatness" attitude. I think Hakuho won fair and square. Some time ago BuBa - one of our mongolian members enlighted us about "69 affair" :

Asa was joking. He didn't give any car to Hakuho. It is just the man who hosted the event has made the twist of turning the attempted joke to a wish saying and the media of course picked it up. The russian car is a common trophy in small tournaments in countryside. So it is just a bad joke.

and link Original topic

[Jonosuke]

u won't understand it unless u were a Mongolian... one day zensho is really nothing to the Yokozuna himself too.

I really don't want to get into arguing with you but since you are talking about Ozumo, a very Japanese tradition, then with your logic, you may not understand it at all because you are not a Japanese.

Basically whenever this type of opinion comes up, I'd like to point out, any given day anyone at this level can beat anyone else including the yokozuna. Remember Hokutoriki.

Another is that Hakuho deserves much more credit that what you have given.

Hakuho is really proud of his father's accomplishments and he more than anyone else wants to reach the summit all on his own, not being helped out by anyone else especially by the yokozuna. If he did, he'd never able to win any bout against the yokozuna in the future. And remember this is not the first time he beat Asashoryu.

One more, a Zensho Yusho means a great deal to Asashoryu as it's so hard to achieve. Asashoryu is there to make himself a great yokozuna if not already and not making someone else a yokozuna.

[Bishonohana]

I really don't want to get into arguing with you but since you are talking about Ozumo, a very Japanese tradition, then with your logic, you may not understand it at all because you are not a Japanese.

Basically whenever this type of opinion comes up, I'd like to point out, any given day anyone at this level can beat anyone else including the yokozuna. Remember Hokutoriki.

Another is that Hakuho deserves much more credit that what you have given.

Hakuho is really proud of his father's accomplishments and he more than anyone else wants to reach the summit all on his own, not being helped out by anyone else especially by the yokozuna. If he did, he'd never able to win any bout against the yokozuna in the future. And remember this is not the first time he beat Asashoryu.

One more, a Zensho Yusho means a great deal to Asashoryu as it's so hard to achieve. Asashoryu is there to make himself a great yokozuna if not already and not making someone else a yokozuna.

Well said, Jonosuke-san!! (Sign of approval) I couldn't have said it any better...(not that I could (Applauding...) ) The point is perfect! (Yusho winner...)

[serv]

u won't understand it unless u were a Mongolian... one day zensho is really nothing to the Yokozuna himself too.

I really don't want to get into arguing with you but since you are talking about Ozumo, a very Japanese tradition, then with your logic, you may not understand it at all because you are not a Japanese.

Basically whenever this type of opinion comes up, I'd like to point out, any given day anyone at this level can beat anyone else including the yokozuna. Remember Hokutoriki.

Another is that Hakuho deserves much more credit that what you have given.

Hakuho is really proud of his father's accomplishments and he more than anyone else wants to reach the summit all on his own, not being helped out by anyone else especially by the yokozuna. If he did, he'd never able to win any bout against the yokozuna in the future. And remember this is not the first time he beat Asashoryu.

One more, a Zensho Yusho means a great deal to Asashoryu as it's so hard to achieve. Asashoryu is there to make himself a great yokozuna if not already and not making someone else a yokozuna.

thank you for reply. plz let me try to make my point once again cuz it seems like you didn't quite get me. 1st of all, i know i'll never understand some of Japanese Sumo/Ozumo tradition cuz' i'm not a Japanese. I have no idea about Japan and its culture. all i got are from the news, books, ppl who went there, and some japan-related Hollywood movies. :P it's a totally different culture to me to comprehend.

2ndly, please note that I don't say that Hakuho always wins the Yokozuna fakely. I am only talking about the last day match between them, to be more precisely, the last match on the Nagoya Basho of 2006.

I am sure Hakuho is the next soon to be Yokozuna. It seems like Hakuho is the 2nd top rikishi in the current NSK as today.

What you won't understand unless you are Mongolian is that most of the Mongolians can do and willing to do fake wrestling in order to achieve whatever goal they want. In the Ozumo, doing fake wrestling is not understandable/undoable cuz Japanese culture isn't forgivable on those matters. if one wasn't true his tradition, one would cuts off his fingers or even does the suicide in Japanese famous Samurai culture, and many Japanese proudly say that Ozumo and the Samurai are the same in culture-vice.

I am just making my guess about their match that it might be a fake one with hope that Hakuho reaches the Yokozuna rank.

finally, i can tell that Mongolians can do the things that Japanese can't think of or vice versa. in order words, Japanese can think the things that Mongolian never think of.

hope u get my lousy idea. i wasn't argueing w/ u, just trying to make more sense of Ozumo.

Edited July 26, 2006 by serv

[sekitori]

One more, a Zensho Yusho means a great deal to Asashoryu as it's so hard to achieve. Asashoryu is there to make himself a great yokozuna if not already and not making someone else a yokozuna.

I agree. However, Asashoryu had already won the basho and Hakuho was making the attempt to become a yokozuna. As much as zensho yusho meant to Asashoryu, I think that becoming a yokozuna probably meant even more to Hakuho. If Hakuho was 100% percent ready for the match, I think that Asashoryu was probably 95% ready. Against anyone else, Asashoryu would have won. I think that extra motivation made the difference. If their bout determined the yusho winner, the result may have been different.

One thing else comes to mind. There was no mention of it near the end of the basho, but Asashoryu was competing pretty much with one arm at the start of the basho yet he continued to win. I wonder if his arm was fully healed by senshuraku. If Asashoryu didn't have full use of that arm while competing against such a formidable opponent, I would be surprised that he performed as well as he did against Hakuho.

[Jakusotsu]

If Hakuho was 100% percent ready for the match, I think that Asashoryu was probably 95% ready. Against anyone else, Asashoryu would have won. I think that extra motivation made the difference. If their bout determined the yusho winner, the result may have been different.

Agreed 100% ;-)

[serv]

As for me it doesn't fit to Asa's "I'm on the way to the greatness" attitude. I think Hakuho won fair and square. ...

Asa's already been the greatness, at least one of the great. He's on a way to much more greatness now. we just can't really tell about his greatness cuz the greatness usually takes place past a long time ago. Ppl do speak about greatness from the past, not the present.

he made some 3 records with 7 yushos in a row. many sure he can have the record of a rikishi with most yushos in the 6-basho/year format. i think Asa knows that he'll be remembered as the greatness, if not, as one of the great.

It's only when Hakuho gets his Yokozuna rank: last basho, next Septemter basho, or maybe sometime in next year. NSK has been longing for another Yokozuna and of course they want Japanese born Yokozuna for the pride.

Last 3 basho, Hakuho won total of 40(13-14-13) bouts with one Yusho. When other Yokozunas recieved their Yokozuna, they had won between 34 and 39 bouts in their last 3 bashos. Only Yokozuna Takanohana had 41 bouts when he got his Yokozuna. Yokozuna Musashimaru had 34 for example. Any of you know what are the rules of NSK's yokozuna acceptance?

[Zeokage]

2 consecutive yusho... is the basic guideline.

If I remember correctly, it's also possible with yusho equivalent performances. A rikishi must also act like a Yokozuna in and out of the dohyo. Mannerisms, ceremony and the like. It was that last thing that was lacking that stopped Konishiki from becoming Yokozuna despite 2 yusho in a row.

If that last fact is incorrect, please let me know.

Edited July 26, 2006 by Zeokage

[Ryukaze]

One thing else comes to mind. There was no mention of it near the end of the basho, but Asashoryu was competing pretty much with one arm at the start of the basho yet he continued to win. I wonder if his arm was fully healed by senshuraku. If Asashoryu didn't have full use of that arm while competing against such a formidable opponent, I would be surprised that he performed as well as he did against Hakuho.

So what does this tell ya bout his competition?......

[serv]

One more, a Zensho Yusho means a great deal to Asashoryu as it's so hard to achieve. Asashoryu is there to make himself a great yokozuna if not already and not making someone else a yokozuna.

I agree. However, Asashoryu had already won the basho and Hakuho was making the attempt to become a yokozuna.

That's right, Asashoryu already won the basho on 14th day, and he has done many Zensho Yushos.

by the day 15th, it was an excellent chance for Hakuho to make the Yokozuna as NSK's 13 or more bouts promise. Then they decided not to give him the promotion. losing his 1st bout on the 1st day of basho is the reason for NSK's decision? or his Mongolian or the NSK's Japanese born Yokozuna need?

NSK shouldn't make false promise before the basho and it's very hard on the rikishi mentally and physically. NSK did something similiar to Kaio for his Yokozuna promotion announcement before the bashos. Why just don't the rikishi who wins the Yusho two in a row promoted to the Yokozuna? no more 13 or more wins, or 12 or more wins, or 10 or more wins with Japanese citizenship, etc...

[serv]

2 consecutive yusho... is the basic guideline.

If I remember correctly, it's also possible with yusho equivalent performances. A rikishi must also act like a Yokozuna in and out of the dohyo. Mannerisms, ceremony and the like. It was that last thing that was lacking that stopped Konishiki from becoming Yokozuna despite 2 yusho in a row.

If that last fact is incorrect, please let me know.

wow, that's very harsh. poor Konishiki.

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

One thing else comes to mind. There was no mention of it near the end of the basho, but Asashoryu was competing pretty much with one arm at the start of the basho yet he continued to win. I wonder if his arm was fully healed by senshuraku. If Asashoryu didn't have full use of that arm while competing against such a formidable opponent, I would be surprised that he performed as well as he did against Hakuho.

Asashoryu had next to full use of his arm throughout the basho. Small injury and used solely his "useless" arm to throw Shogun early in the tournament and used the same arm fully against Ama. There was nothing "one-armedness" in Shoryu's condition unless you determine one-armedness in peculiar way.

[serv]

So what does this tell ya bout his competition with Hakuho?

that tells me that Asashoryu didn't do his sumo with Hakuho on that day. It's obvious from their match replays. And he gave up on Hakuho willingly (with carefully planned intention) on that last 15th day bout with hope of Hakuho's 69th Yokozuna. And he'd be always remembered as a great warrior for Mongolian generations giving the gift of 69th Mongolian Yokozuna as he promised on Hakuho's Ozeki party, though some non-Mongolians say it was a joke of Russian jeep.

And, Ozumo'd have two Mongolian Yokozuna and it's a great pride for Mongolians since the Hubilai Khaan' unsuccessful attempt of conquering the Japan and revenge of late 1930's Japan's war on eastern Mongolian borders, Khalkhiin Gol. Khalkhiin Gol is a river with meaning of river of Halh. Halh means Mongolians. if NSK gave the Yokozuna to Hakuho after Nagoya basho, it would be hard on most Japanese as an insult to have not one, even more Yokozunas from the historical rivals, Mongolians. :P

Edited July 26, 2006 by serv

[Shimpu]

and it would be hard on most Japanese as an insult to have not one, two Yokozunas from historical rivals, Mongolians. :P

Isn't hard for Mongolians to observe how best young wrestlers are packing theirs bags and leave Mongolia? Best wrestlers who don't care about national sport - they simply abandon own tradition and go to historical rivals, Japanese. They wear japanese clothes, hairstyle etc. Isn't this an insult for heirs of Hubilai Khaan ? ;-)

Edited July 26, 2006 by Shimpu

[Doitsuyama]

2 consecutive yusho... is the basic guideline.

If I remember correctly, it's also possible with yusho equivalent performances. A rikishi must also act like a Yokozuna in and out of the dohyo. Mannerisms, ceremony and the like. It was that last thing that was lacking that stopped Konishiki from becoming Yokozuna despite 2 yusho in a row.

If that last fact is incorrect, please let me know.

wow, that's very harsh. poor Konishiki.

Yes, it is quite incorrect. No "poor Konishiki" in my view. Well, maybe a tiny little bit.

It wasn't two yusho in a row, it was 13-2 yusho, 12-3 3rd place, 13-2 yusho with quite poor competition rank-wise, as may see yourself by clicking on the links.

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

This is again the kind of discussion that leaves one waving a white flag in complexion. Well not really, it is again a classic example of bout that was bound to be called untrue if Hakuho won. The surprising part is that Hakuho actually is Shoryu's caliber in face to face bouts but noo...still if Shoryu loses, he just let it go.

Shoryu has many signs of a psychopath. His demeanor is much so, with these hunt downs of rikishi who dare to beat him, even slamming Sekiryu into the wall after getting defeated by him in keiko. Doesn't cope well with disappointments. If there is one rikishi who needs to be the boss, it is Shoryu. He shines and is happy when people worship him, what happens when things go wrong? Well he is very strong rikishi with massive will to win and the work he has done to gain his success if formidable so we don't see that side much. He wants to feel like he is the best of the best and the one to be worshipped. Do you really think there is room for "welcome to yokozuna!" in his pride? He enjoys going overboard at keiko. He enjoys humiliating rikishi. He sure enjoys being the sole yokozuna and wants to remain unchallenged. Or maybe he is really a different kind of guy and he welcomes Hakuho to yokozuna without an insult to his gigantic ego. I only get bad vibs out of him. Maybe he is totally opposite, caring and nice human.... ;-)

[Doitsuyama]

by the day 15th, it was an excellent chance for Hakuho to make the Yokozuna as NSK's 13 or more bouts promise. Then they decided not to give him the promotion. losing his 1st bout on the 1st day of basho is the reason for NSK's decision? or his Mongolian or the NSK's Japanese born Yokozuna need?

I say it is because he is totally new to the rank of ozeki. His string of great basho for three or four time in a row sure is remarkable but only the last two were at ozeki rank, so the very good basho before were of no use for yokozuna promotion consideration. And thus the remaining criterium is two yusho in two basho, period.

I say all three reasons from you were not the reason. Even Japanese editors of Japanese newspapers are longing for a second strong yokozuna, no matter if Japanese, Mongolian or Martian, and would have quite welcomed a Hakuho promotion.

Now go, and remove the videos from youtube, as the creator kindly requested. ;-)

[sekitori]

If Hakuho was 100% percent ready for the match, I think that Asashoryu was probably 95% ready. Against anyone else, Asashoryu would have won. I think that extra motivation made the difference. If their bout determined the yusho winner, the result may have been different.

Agreed 100% ;-)

Thanks for the comment. I'm glad somebody agreed with what I said. That doesn't happen very often. And 100%, no less. I would have settled for even 70 or 80%. :-)