kaio = dirty sumo today?

[yamaneko]

I hadnt seen this before, but it has something ive been curious about Kaio had aminishiki almost in a submission hold, almost like he was going to break his arm. Is this considered dirty sumo? Otherwise im surprised not more people try to get arm locks like that? Honestly, i know kaio is trying to win, but i really didnt think such a hold was necessary. Even the annoucers were surprised aminishiki came out of it ok.

[Hundred Hand Slap]

I'll have to watch a clear relpay tomorrow on BANZUKE.com

[yamaneko]

you can only see it from one of the angles i think. But the annoucers were sure concerned about aminishiki's arm when they watched the replays.

[Jakusotsu]

As if this was the first elbow destroyed by the mighty Kaio...

[yamaneko]

thats what im curious to know if hes done this kind of thing before or if others have done it

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

KaioU is in some kind of insect whoosh mood this basho. Aminishiki isn't that small but another whoosh tsukiotoshi. In any case if you want to know KaioU's history of injuring foes's arms, here are some from my memory:

He messed up Nada's elbow totally 7-8 years ago with a nasty kotenage.

He broke Kotoryu's arm some 5 years ago.

He has messed up Tamanoshima's elbow twice with kotenage.

He almost ripped Hayateumi's arm off with a violent tottari in his ozeki debut if I remember correctly.

He has injured Taikai's shoulder twice with kotenage/tottari.

Kotenage and tottari are dangerous especially when KaioU does those as his style is those is violent and yanks are scary.

[Otokonoyama]

Kote-nage is Kaio's signature throw. After injuring several of his compatriots with the technique, he has shown more restraint in using it.

[Babaryutaikai]

Kote-nage is Kaio's signature throw. After injuring several of his compatriots with the technique, he has shown more restraint in using it.

Maybe he has shown restraint RECENTLY, but from the third row masu seats, my friend and I were very concerned about the possibility of Aminishiki's arm being broken. It was almost too difficult to watch.

[Otokonoyama]

Kote-nage is Kaio's signature throw. After injuring several of his compatriots with the technique, he has shown more restraint in using it.

Maybe he has shown restraint RECENTLY, but from the third row masu seats, my friend and I were very concerned about the possibility of Aminishiki's arm being broken. It was almost too difficult to watch.

Hence I didn't say complete restraint! (In jonokuchi...) He still uses this kimarite occasionally, to great effect (Neener, neener...)

I do hope Aminishiki is OK. He is a great technician, and very exciting to watch. His knees seem to give him enough trouble as it is...

Edited May 12, 2006 by Otokonoyama

[Babaryutaikai]

Maybe he has shown restraint RECENTLY, but from the third row masu seats, my friend and I were very concerned about the possibility of Aminishiki's arm being broken. It was almost too difficult to watch.

Hence I didn't say complete restraint! (In jonokuchi...) He still uses this kimarite occasionally, to great effect (Neener, neener...)

I do hope Aminishiki is OK. He is a great technician, and very exciting to watch. His knees seem to give him enough trouble as it is...

Yes, it would be a shame to have Aminishiki add an arm injury to his previously injured knees, but he is resilient, isn't he? Guess we'll have to wait until Joe K's Day 6 Rikishi Talk.

[yamaneko]

i didnt realize this. I think im going to root agasint kaio always now. Although its legal, when you have a history of injuring other people with it, i dont think its cool. If thats what it takes for him to win in his old age just intai already. One of the reasons why i love sumo is because it is inherently non violent.

[Shimpu]

This is power-sumo (Yucky...)

[rhino]

i didnt realize this. I think im going to root agasint kaio always now. Although its legal, when you have a history of injuring other people with it, i dont think its cool. If thats what it takes for him to win in his old age just intai already. One of the reasons why i love sumo is because it is inherently non violent.

I'm not sure how you can say that sumo is non-violent: as combat sports go it's practically no holds barred!

Obviously the aim isn't to hurt your opponent, but non-violent? You routinely encounter hard head clashes, people being thrown headfirst onto the clay floor, powerful slaps to the face, the list could go on- kotenage and tottari are just a part of that.

In the words of Musashimaru- "sumo hurts!" (Yucky...)

On the other hand I'm not a fan of anything that's likely to cause serious injury, so on that point I agree with you.

I've never liked Kaio all that much either, arm twisting or no...

Edited May 13, 2006 by rhino

[yamaneko]

what i meant is the rules are really aimed toward non violence when compared to other action sports like boxing/ultimate fighting, or martial arts like karate, etc.

Kicking is not allowed, closed fists punching, etc. headlocks, etc. like in wrestling are very rare, etc.

Slapping the face can hurt yes, but its a lot better than a karate chop to the face, or closed fist.

[Jonosuke]

I'm not sure how you can say that sumo is non-violent: as combat sports go it's practically no holds barred!

Sumo is a violent activity.

Whichever sport do you know of have "umpire/referee" carrying a short dagger in his person, not meant to use against others but to himself?

Not only the dohyo is a sacred ground but also when you go up there, you are supposed to go up there as if your life depends on it. This is precisely the reason you need to observe proper manners when you go see an asa-geiko as these guys are trainining for life and death struggles. It isn't for show. Sumo really isn't just another sport.

[Kishinoyama]

Kote-nage is Kaio's signature throw. ... he has shown more restraint in using it.

Including one time against the Yokozuna. After using the Kote-nage to force Asashoryu out, Kaio let go of the arm pretty quickly trying to aviod an injury to the Yokozuna's arm.

[Cammy]

I am not a fan of anyone getting injured, but you do what you do to win a match. I am a fan of Kaio, but when I see him twist some arms, I do worry about the other person, because it does look really painful.

[Jakusotsu]

It may be some fancy delusion of mine, but I always have the impression that once Kaio gets his armlock, he'll "gently suggest" to accept the inevitable. "C'mon mate, You know that You've already lost - don't make this any more painful for You!" If he would always apply full strength with no holds barred, he'd leave broken bones all around.

[sekihiryu]

I agree Jakusotsu, I watched VHS replays of this bout and I have reached the conclusion that Aminishiki is a fool: he fought against the throw instead of going with it. Surely he is smart enough to know that he got caught and that it would be futile to resist a man as powerful as Kaio and master of such a hold.

Why he didnt surrender and live to fight another day is a mystery, guts? fighting spirit? to me it was display of stupid bravado, that could have had severe consequences.

Kaio must have been thinking likewise at the time " what is this fool doing? does he want his arm smashed??"

Edited May 13, 2006 by sekihiryu

[Araiguma_Rascal]

One of the reasons why i love sumo is because it is inherently non violent.

Then you must be a huge fan of flower arrangement. I don't think it's 'dirty sumo" to do a legal move that might hurt your opponent. By that logic a yori-taoshi would also be a dirty move. But, I don't completely disagree. For example, I would agree that doing more than necessary to win the bout on purpose with intent to injure is bad, and striking in anger with intent to injure is also bad.

Edited May 13, 2006 by Araiguma_Rascal

[Flying_Monkey]

Get over it! It's a perfectly legal and not uncommon move - it's how Hakuho destroyed Asa a couple of basho ago, and when it works it is frightening. It's up to rikishi not to get into positions where they can be beaten this way, and if they do they have only themselves to blame...

[Hananotaka]

I'm not sure how you can say that sumo is non-violent: as combat sports go it's practically no holds barred!

Sumo is a violent activity.

Whichever sport do you know of have "umpire/referee" carrying a short dagger in his person, not meant to use against others but to himself?

Not only the dohyo is a sacred ground but also when you go up there, you are supposed to go up there as if your life depends on it. This is precisely the reason you need to observe proper manners when you go see an asa-geiko as these guys are trainining for life and death struggles. It isn't for show. Sumo really isn't just another sport.

It was reported this basho that before Kitazakura ascends the dohyo, he says a small apology to his family: "Gomen nasai." This is because he goes up there with 死ぬ気 shinu ki, the intent to die.

After Wakanohana III was married and had kids, he wrote out a will and kept it secret from his family. It was with the assumption that he could be killed on the dohyo. On the day of his retirement, he tore it up.

From that perspective, Kaiou's kotenage, while certainly not greatly appreciated by the other rikishi probably isn't considered that dirty. A rikishi in his grasp always has the option of conceding to the pressure. That's a bit different from wild harite's, which the rikishi do hate.

[_the_mind_]

i finally saw the bout in question from the original post, to me it looked like one of the moves Takanonami used to do where he would latch the guy over his shoulder and move him around with it. it looked like Kaio tried to do that but Aminishiki managed to wiggle his arm out some and kaio kept holding the arm. no big deal. yes it looked painful, but thats how it goes. Kaio had him in close by not letting go of his arm. belly to belly fighting is going to favor Kaio. i dont see what the big stink is

although as someone else said, im sure the other rikishi doesnt care for it too much, but im sure most other rikishi get sick of hokutoriki's endless henka also. but it is what it is, part of sumo. you may like it or not, but it happens.