From YDC to Tochiazuma

[madorosumaru]

From time to time, it is good for us to get a feel of what the Japanese press is saying about the current situation of sumo. It's all a matter of perspective.

A new ozeki will be born this week. But job one for the YDC is to come up with a yokozuna. By achieving yusho in Hatsu Basho and winning 12 in Osaka, Tochiazuma has brought his tsunatori to the front burner. According to YDC Chairman Ishibashi, "It doesn't matter if he gets yusho in Natsu Basho. We are going to use 13 wins as one of the qualifying criteria."

"It will be a great plus to Ozumo if there is a Japanese yokozuna," the chaiman continued with great expectations from Tochiazuma.

Indeed, in addition to Asashoryu's yusho, the Mongolians made history by sweeping the sansho in Haru Basho. Ryu further added insult to injury by stating, "This is not Osaka Basho; it is more like a Mongolia Basho." It was a basho of humiliation for the national sport.

Ironically, TV viewerhip, which had been way down into single digit, went up to 13.8% on senshuraku. "If only Tochiazuma was involved in the ketteisen," lamented Ishibashi. "That would have qualified as a jun-yusho . . . " In any case, the illustrious members of the YDC are hoping the sustained tsunatori by Tochiazuma would further enhance sumo's popularity.

There hasn't been a new Japanese yokozuna since Waka III--a period of about eight years. It is undeniable that a Japanese yokozuna is necessary for the sake of Ozumo, but if [the new yokozuna] is weak and his career short-lived, then it's all over, baby! It is truly a rough road ahead for the revitalization of the national sport.

Edited March 29, 2006 by madorosumaru

[Jejima]

I thought it was interesting that the Japanese bias was announced publicly. Some of us have always suspected this (I personally sometimes think it, and sometimes don't).

This made me wonder.....

If Kotooshu or Hakuho were in a similar situation to what Tochiazuma is in now, would they also be allowed to carry a 12-3 NON-Jun-Yusho forward to the next basho?

[madorosumaru]

A well-known sumo columnist has taken Ishibashi to task. Tadashi Imamura of Sankei Sports writes that Ishibashi's statement that "13 win in Natsu Basho, with or without yusho, would be sufficient for Tochiazuma's promotion to yokozuna" further lowers the criteria put up by Kitanoumi Rijicho.

That is not the job of the YDC, which is supposed to be an advisory group for the Kyokai. When the NSK comes up with a candidate for promotion, they are the ones to discuss the relevant factors and offer an opinion report. To suggest a priori that "13 is enough" is to have "the cart before the horse."

Ishibashi also said, "We want a Japanese yokozuna. Everyone wants that." Imamura thinks that runs totally counter to the strictly neutral position that the YDC should hold. To him, the YDC is "behaving like a sumo fan club." He wonders what happened to the resolute committee that rejected Takanohana's promotion after a zensho yusho. The YDC at that time had claimed that the fact that he had a 14-1 yusho two basho before did not fall under the definition of "consecutive yusho."

Imamura reminds us that the YDC was created in 1950 to act as a barrier against harsh public opinion. In one basho, all three yokozuna went kyujo. Earlier, another yokozuna, Maedayama, was driven to retirement by media uproar when he was caught watching a baseball game during the time he was kyujo with an injury. Their job then was to put some sense and order into the entire proceeding.

Imamura claims that the oyakata know best who should or should not be promoted. In no other sport is it necessary to consult an outside group on every occasion to determine a champion. He believes there is no loner any need for the anachronistic YDC, which has turned into a "salon for sumo dilettantes."

Edited March 29, 2006 by madorosumaru

[Fukurou]

He believes there is no loner any need for the anachronistic YDC, which has turned into a "salon for sumo dilettantes."

OOH! I wonder if Ms. Uchidate's response to *that* will be suitable for public consumption (Censored)

[Kishinoyama]

Imamura...... believes there is no longer any need for the anachronistic YDC, which has turned into a "salon for sumo dilettantes."

I agree. Get rid of the whole lot of them. Let them find something else to do. The Oyakata know who should be promoted and who should not. (Applauding...)

[sumofan]

I don't think that they should consider him at all, even should he win a zensho yusho.

the rule is 2 consecutive yusho or equivalent.

This way you only end up with yokozunas that have trouble winning even 1 basho per year.

A yokozuna should emerge automatically if he has the talent, like asashoryu.

If you are not obviously a class better than the others, you don't qualify.

Ask yourself this: would they have promoted Akebono with results like these?

I think the answer to that is clear.

If they want a japanese yokozuna, they should encourage their rikishi to work harder and believe in themselves. They need focus, not pampering.

But that's just MY opinion of course.

[Chiyozakura]

I don't think that they should consider him at all, even should he win a zensho yusho.

the rule is 2 consecutive yusho or equivalent.

This way you only end up with yokozunas that have trouble winning even 1 basho per year.

You mean like Chiyonofuji and Kitanoumi?

[Jakusotsu]

A yokozuna should emerge automatically if he has the talent, like asashoryu.

If you are not obviously a class better than the others, you don't qualify.

And that's exactly the problem I'd have with a Yokozuna Tochiazuma right now. He's a worthy Ozeki, no doubt, but Yokozuna material? Not in my eyes. Losing two in a row against Miyabiyama leaves a bad taste.

[Sanvean]

Well, argument about loosing two in a row to Miyabiyama is not a good one IMO. Being former Ozeki and probably Sekiwake soon, he is a difficult opponent. Besides, Takanohana lost three in a row to Tosanoumi - so what?

Of course, even tough I'm a big fan of Tochiazuma, I can see clearly that he is not going to be a great Yokozuna. But could he ever get the tsuna, it would make me extremely happy.

[Kishinoyama]

I don't think that they should consider him at all, even should he win a zensho yusho.

I don't see how they could not promote him with a zensho yusho. 41 wins over three tournaments. Only 4 losses even with two of them being to Miyabiyama. Wouldn't that also be three straight wins against the Yokozuna? They would have no choice in my opinion. And the criteria at the moment is 13 wins with the yusho. 15 would be a 'done deal'. (Showing respect...)

[sumofan]

I don't think that they should consider him at all, even should he win a zensho yusho.

I don't see how they could not promote him with a zensho yusho. 41 wins over three tournaments. Only 4 losses even with two of them being to Miyabiyama. Wouldn't that also be three straight wins against the Yokozuna? They would have no choice in my opinion. And the criteria at the moment is 13 wins with the yusho. 15 would be a 'done deal'. (Showing respect...)

But it's the 'at the moment' that is bothering me.

Takanohana did not get a promotion the first time, even though his record was much better than Tochi's.

Same for Akebono I believe.

There is no reason why they should lower the bar.

A yokozuna should be the champion of champions.

If they promote him with 13 wins next basho it will hurt the title of yokozuna, because I really don't see tochiazuma as a worthy yokozuna. He will always be the yokozuna who had to get given a leg up to get the title.

[Doitsuyama]

Takanohana did not get a promotion the first time, even though his record was much better than Tochi's.

Same for Akebono I believe.

Wow, it sure is amazing how people throw arguments without even checking the facts. Maybe it's because it's too bothersome to you?

Well, I'm here to help you. Takanohana had a 14-1Y, 11-4, 15-0Y run. Tochiazuma's run would be like 14-1Y, 12-3, 13-2Y. Much better? Hardly. I'd argue that the 11-4 just killed the run, and wasn't enough to carry it over to the next basho and he had to start from zero again.

With Akebono you sure are daydreaming to conjure up something to help your argument. Akebono's whole ozeki career was 0-0-15, 9-6, 14-1Y, 13-2Y.

Look, your style of presenting the argument isn't helpful but truly hurtful with those big errors...

Edited March 31, 2006 by Doitsuyama

[sumofan]

Takanohana did not get a promotion the first time, even though his record was much better than Tochi's.

Same for Akebono I believe.

Wow, it sure is amazing how people throw arguments without even checking the facts. Maybe it's because it's too bothersome to you?

Well, I'm here to help you. Takanohana had a 14-1Y, 11-4, 15-0Y run. Tochiazuma's run would be like 14-1Y, 12-3, 13-2Y. Much better? Hardly. I'd argue that the 11-4 just killed the run, and wasn't enough to carry it over to the next basho and he had to start from zero again.

With Akebono you sure are daydreaming to conjure up something to help your argument. Akebono's whole ozeki career was 0-0-15, 9-6, 14-1Y, 13-2Y.

Look, your style of presenting the argument isn't helpful but truly hurtful with those big errors...

I am not worthy... (Showing respect...)

I admit I did not check those facts. I thought I remembered someone on this forum presented those numbers and I did not bother to check.

You are right to chastice me.

In that case you are right that Takanohana's run was not worthy of promotion.

He still had more wins during that run than Tochiazuma if he gets a 13-2Y next time, though.

And remember that there was talk that just getting 13 wins would be enough.with or without the yusho.

I will try to be more careful next time.

(Carried away on a stretcher...)

Edited March 31, 2006 by sumofan

[Asashosakari]

If they promote him with 13 wins next basho it will hurt the title of yokozuna, because I really don't see tochiazuma as a worthy yokozuna.

It will hurt the title of yokozuna because you don't see him as worthy? I guess you think everybody else simply must feel the same way as you do.

He will always be the yokozuna who had to get given a leg up to get the title.

I wonder how many more times it needs to be pointed out that the late 80s to 1990s period with its strict 2-yusho interpretation is the historical exception, not the rule, until people stop acting as though Tochiazuma (or Kaio before) is being given some completely unprecedented help here.

Edited March 31, 2006 by Asashosakari

[Tomoe]

The strict 2-yusho-for-promotion-rule is a relatively new thing. And, as you can see in the case of Waka III is no guaranty at all for a successful future as yokozuna. So in my opinion Sumo need a new japanese yokozuna, who is able to compete for yusho's with the guys from mongolia....and the only one in this league and in the right rank to get a yokozuna promotion is Tochiazuma (if he stay uninjured). (Showing respect...)

The NSK would be well advised not to stick to hard to their own new rules...they better do not forget: rules are made for people not otherwise (Carried away on a stretcher...)

[Doitsuyama]

The NSK would be well advised not to stick to hard to their own new rules...they better do not forget: rules are made for people not otherwise (Carried away on a stretcher...)

Well, actually it is that people are complaining the NSK isn't setting up fast and hard rules, but rather talking wishy-washy. So your advise to NSK seems not really necessary. So far this wishy-washy style of the NSK seems to lead to a rather good separation line from yokozuna to ozeki as I made an argument for earlier. With the notable exception of Wakanohana III who interestingly met the hard and fast rule of two consecutive yusho... maybe even more wishy-washy talk is necessary. (Showing respect...)

[sumofan]

Ok before this discussion ends in a flamefest, let me quickly assure you of the following:

this is just MY opinion. I don't expect others to agree. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion

The 2 yusho rule was created to avoid embarrasing situations where a yokozuna promotion is a political decision, rather than a decision based on merit and prowess.

I agree with this.

It is a bit like the 8th dan exam for Kendo. The pass rate is something like 0.x%. The ultimate title should require the ultimate skill (*)

Look at Asashoryu. There is no doubt whatsoever that he is the walking definition of how a yokozuna should perform.

Kaio is a great Ozeki, and still one of my personal favorites. But that does not mean I think he would be a good Yokozuna. He has his age (injuries) against him. Last year he alternated a lot between KK and Kadoban.

That I don't think they should deviate does not mean that I disrespect Tochiazuma.

I think the best thing now would be to agree to disagree. I think the 2 yusho rule is right on the spot and they should not deviate. You and others don't agree.

Maybe it would be best to leave it at that and live together in harmony (Showing respect...)

(*) Kendo grades actually go up to 10th dan, but 8th is the last for which there is examination. 9 and 10 are awarded by commitee. I don't know the procedure but it is an extremely rare occurrence that a 9th dan gets awarded. 10th dan has not been awared in the last 30 years. From 6th dan there are extra titles (Renshi, Kyoshi and Hanshi) that can be awarded for leadership, judgement and character.

Edited March 31, 2006 by sumofan

[Asashosakari]

Well, actually it is that people are complaining the NSK isn't setting up fast and hard rules, but rather talking wishy-washy. So your advise to NSK seems not really necessary. So far this wishy-washy style of the NSK seems to lead to a rather good separation line from yokozuna to ozeki as I made an argument for earlier. With the notable exception of Wakanohana III who interestingly met the hard and fast rule of two consecutive yusho... maybe even more wishy-washy talk is necessary. (Showing respect...)

I'd just looked at those ratings again right before you posted. Tochiazuma's career numbers are almost making him borderline Yokozuna now, with 2455 and 2427 (if my quick and dirty calculation was correct) for the R3 and R6. Of course, to grow into decent Yokozuna territory he'd actually have to be better in the future than he's been so far (or at least spend several more years being as good as he's been since the start of 2005, i.e. around 75% winning percentage), and that's a bit questionable considering he's almost 30 years old now.

If you find some time, something that I'd be interested in would be what each Yokozuna's weighted peak ratings looked like before their promotions...especially for those who spent an extended period of time as Sanyaku and Ozeki, naturally.

[Guest Buyouzan]

I personally think it is a bad PR move for the NSK to empasize the fact that they want a Japanese Yokozuna. I think that it would be exciting to have another Yokozuna alongside Asashoryu, especially a Japanese one, but for the NSK to proclaim that they desparately want a Japanese Yokozuna is just setting the public up for disappointment. What are the chances of Tochiazuma actually becoming Yokozuna? certainly it is significantly lower than 100%. and if he fails, how long do we have to wait for another chance for a Japanese Yokozuna? most likely a couple years, right? If Tochiazuma fails, they're really in trouble in terms of the popularity of sumo. Not having a Japanese sumo wrestler in the top rank only affects the popularity of sumo because they publicize it as though it matters. Both the NSK and the public should just live with the fact that 'foreigners' are now a significant part of the sumo wrestling world, and they are no different than the Japan-born wrestlers in terms of the respect they have for the sumo culture and tradition. As Asashoryu, Kotooshu, and Hakuho all passed the test for possessing respectable character appropriate for Yokozuna and Ozeki, they should forget the fact that they were 'foreigners' and embrace them as sumo wrestlers that adhere to tradition.

Edited March 31, 2006 by Buyouzan

[ikishima]

I don't see him making it. I know that two ozeki don't equal a yokozuna but, we do have two young contenders. Why risk promotion of someone who may or may not make it as a yokozuna? 29 isn't old but he has been around for a while and has taken the beatings of a true vet. I wish him luck but I don't see him doing it this time around.

Sure it would be great having a rival up there but the promotion alone wont make a rival. I think it will take more than 13-2. Maybe a 13-2 yusho, but with Hakuho and Osh coming up we could find ourselves with competition real soon.

[Mark Buckton]

an insight into the opionions of a few locals near Tamanoi Beya.

Simply put - those not following sumo very closely want him to be yokozuna because of local pride. Women especially so.

Those who have been watching sumo for years - only half a dozen but the same half dozen I watch with most afternoons in a small sushi restaurant 5-6pm where we drink tea and nibble a bit - and another man who first saw sumo in the mid 1920s!! and has seen a few bouts since of course - he (the ozeki) should be happy as a good ozeki. 3 yusho is more than 99% will ever achieve.

No yokozuna talk really.

[Kintamayama]

I personally think it is a bad PR move for the NSK to empasize the fact that they want a Japanese Yokozuna.

The NSk has said nothing of the sort-on the contrary-Ktanoumi was adamant in demanding at least a 13-2 yusho. It's the YDC which is making these statements.

Just for the record, and there is a difference..

[Guest Buyouzan]

I personally think it is a bad PR move for the NSK to empasize the fact that they want a Japanese Yokozuna.

The NSk has said nothing of the sort-on the contrary-Ktanoumi was adamant in demanding at least a 13-2 yusho. It's the YDC which is making these statements.

Just for the record, and there is a difference..

thanks for pointing that out. still, isn't it a bad PR move for the YDC as well?

[Kintamayama]

thanks for pointing that out. still, isn't it a bad PR move for the YDC as well?

As they stand today, the YDC itself is really bad PR for the Kyokai..

[sekitori]

Yokozuna promotion rules can get very confusing, so I would like confuse things a bit more. Suppose that 13-2 and a jun-yusho is good enough for promotion this time, especially if those two losses are to the yokozuna and one ozeki or to two ozekis. Also suppose that Tochiazuma falls a little short again and ends up with a 12-3 record. With the level of competition increasing, that's quite possible. And suppose his records for the rest of the year are 12-3, 12-3, 14-1 and a yusho, and another 12-3. His only losses would be to the yokozuna/and or ozekis. None would be to lower ranking rikishi. He would not have met the primary criterion for promotion. But he would have won two yushos during year and his record would be 76-14. That's just about 85 percent. I'm just wondering if those kind of those figures could have any effect on yokozuna promotion.

To those of you who know a lot more about these things than I do, could yokozuna promotion be influenced by consistently performing at a very high level over an entire year without exactly meeting current promotion criteria? In other words, does consistency count at all? It think it should, but my guess would be that it probably doesn't. The way the rules are made up at present, it looks as if Tochiazuma could theoretically keep winning 85 percent of the time for the foreseeable future and still remain an ozeki.