Roho / Hakurozan

[Takanobaka]

But my question was not that all. He specifically pointed out these wreslters were belonging to a certain group. What I wanted to know was why he classified each as such and was any significance (which I doubt there is). I just found it a bit strange to see him listing their ethnic origin and then finishing his post with saying the rest are Russians as if to suggest there is something different about them. Perhaps I am belaboring the point and being overly sensitive.

I don't think there is any significance. I've written about this on this forum before.

Up until I first saw Ossetian Yokozuna's posts about Ossetians I never consciously realized there would be any difference drawn from the fact that they have specific ethnic roots. So I specifically asked about this a couple of them.

Hakurozan and Rohou basically said - "We're all Russian man... That's why we gotta look out for each other."

When I asked Alan Karaev, I think the strongest Amateur Rikishi in the World today, he just looked at me like I was asking something completely ridiculous and just said: "Yeah what's the big issue, ethnically we're Ossetians, because we hail from Ossetia. And our country is Russia - we're Russian. What's the issue?"

So I'm sure they specifically don't see any particular significance in it. (You are going off-topic...)

Maybe not for them personally, but I'm sure there are more Ossetians than just OY that feel that there really is a difference, especially when Ossetia has a fairly strong separatist movement. Also, can't someone be proud of their heritage without comprising their nationalism? I know plenty of native Brooklynites who are extremely proud of their Italian heritage, yet all of them consider themselves Americans first and foremost.

Last part is that Ossetia has a slightly different history of control than some of the other Russian (geographical) ethnic groups, that could lead to there being a bit more of a sense of ethnic unity there. It's not like the smaller tribal cultures out in Siberia who have always been under someone else's control, but nobody has ever really acted too harshly on it simply because the areas weren't considered to be that valuable (except as penal colonies, I guess). Ossetia is in a very valuable area, so when you have multiple countries fighting over the same region for hundreds (or even thousands) of years, it tends to create a slightly stronger than usual sense of location pride (see: Serbia, Alcaise, Texas, Cuba, numerous former European city-states, etc), which is linkable to ethnic pride if there's only one native ethnicity to that location.

As a Jew, I personally disagree that Jewish is an ethnicity, but that's just a matter of personal opinion. I think you might be able to call Sefard or Ashkenaz or whatever sect the Ethiopian Jews were an ethnicity to some extent, but "Jewish" is just way way too broad, especially when there are at least three (maybe more) distinct cultural backgrounds which they were derived from. After that, where does a religion start to become a culture? If you're in a religion that encourages isolation, then I guess that over time it is more likely that those isolated groups can eventually be seen to be their own ethnicity (i.e., the Huegenots, etc). Who knows though. Now I'm starting to drift off into no-man's land...

[Shimpu]

Jews are like Christians, if you get my drift.

(You are going off-topic...)

Not quit right.

You can't be a secular Christian,

but you can be a secular Jew (ethnically Jewish, but no religious beliefs).

I've known several Israelis who hold no religious beliefs, but still refer to themselves as Jews.

Jewish is both an ethnic label and a religious one.

Please take no offense. I mean none. Ethnicity and religion are simply topics I find interesting.

So you say Jew and Ossetian are essentially ethnic groups in the same way?Ossetian is a religion? Judaism is a religion, first and foremost. Even non-religious Jews like me are circumcised and have Bar-Mitzvahs, totally religious aspects. An overwhelming majority follows the high holidays, even if they are totally secular Jews.

I don't get it. Are you maintaining that everyone who is believer of Judaism or is circumcised (:-() is a Jew? Jews are Jews that is all, I see no connection with religion or all this penis stuff. :-S Jew = Isreali, as Shibouyama pointed and this is an ethnicity.

[Asashosakari]

I don't get it. Are you maintaining that everyone who is believer of Judaism or is circumcised (:-S) is a Jew? Jews are Jews that is all, I see no connection with religion or all this penis stuff. (You are going off-topic...) Jew = Isreali, as Shibouyama pointed and this is an ethnicity.

That's certainly not what Shibouyama said, and the rest of your post is pretty much 100% inaccurate as well.

[Kintamayama]

I don't get it. Are you maintaining that everyone who is believer of Judaism or is circumcised (:-S) is a Jew? Jews are Jews that is all, I see no connection with religion or all this penis stuff. (You are going off-topic...) Jew = Isreali, as Shibouyama pointed and this is an ethnicity.

So 6 million Jews living in the States are not Jews? Of course EVERYONE who is a believer of Judaism is a Jew, just like EVERYBODY who believes in Islam is a Moslem. I never said that everyone who is circumcized is Jewish. I said most Jews are circumcized. A Jew = Israeli? What about the Arab- Israelis, one million of them, that live in Israel? Jews all of them? That is one of the most misinformed sentences I have ever heard. What about the large number of Jews living in many countries around the world? They are what? Trucks?

"All this penis stuff" is directly connected to Judaism, as it is one of its physical signs. The fact that many other religions adopted this as well is a different story.

[Shimpu]

Of course EVERYONE who is a believer of Judaism is a Jew, just like EVERYBODY who believes in Islam is a Moslem.

So, you can became Jew? (You are going off-topic...) Madonna maintains that she isn't a Jew. :-S The fact that many Jews emigrate doesn't mean that they stopped to be Jews because of theirs roots and blood of theirs fathers who are ethnic Jews.

[Sasanishiki]

where does a religion start to become a culture?

This might partially go to answer the link between regarding Jews and Ossetians as equal groupings or labels. Jews from right around the world share some cultural similarities through their faith and the trappings that surround it (even those that are secular). Similarly Ossetians retain or conduct cultural actions due to their culture, which is based on ethnicity.

I think you could argue that the term Russian Ossetian and American Jew (just for example) could be seen in a similar way. The first word describes nationality and the second defines cultural grouping, not necessarily religious or ethnic labels. You could just as easily have Russian Jew and American Ossetian or whatever modifier you like.

Thoughts?

[Asashosakari]

So, you can became Jew? (You are going off-topic...)

Why not?

[Kintamayama]

Of course EVERYONE who is a believer of Judaism is a Jew, just like EVERYBODY who believes in Islam is a Moslem.

So, you can became Jew? (You are going off-topic...) Madonna maintains that she isn't a Jew. :-S The fact that many Jews emigrate doesn't mean that they stopped to be Jews because of theirs roots and blood of theirs fathers who are ethnic Jews.

No, I can't become a Jew. I was born a Jew. Anyhow, you said Jew=Israeli, and as I am Israeli, by your statement, I am a Jew in any case, no? Madonna is not a Jew. She studies Kabala. That doesn't make her a Jew.

There is no such thing as an ethnic Jew, whatever anyone else tells you. A Jew is someone who belongs to the Jewish religion, regardless of where he lives, be it Ethiopia, Ireland or the moon

And you didn't answer my other questions regarding your interesting assumptions. Leave it, Shimpu, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Mods, please put this weird thread out of its misery..

Edited March 22, 2006 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama]

where does a religion start to become a culture?

I think you could argue that the term Russian Ossetian and American Jew (just for example) could be seen in a similar way. The first word describes nationality and the second defines cultural grouping, not necessarily religious or ethnic labels. You could just as easily have Russian Jew and American Ossetian or whatever modifier you like.

Thoughts?

I can argue, and it's not similar at all. The second, in the case of Jews, defines religion, not cultural grouping. Judaism is not a culture. Judaism is a religion.

So, now Judaism is an ethnic group, religion, and a culture. What else?

[Asashosakari]

So, now Judaism is an ethnic group, religion, and a culture. What else?

It's a rock band! (You are going off-topic...)

[Shimpu]

No, I can't become a Jew.

I mean anyone... sorry I think in Polish. In Poland if someone is for an instance Polish Jew it means that he is Jew who live in Poland not that he is Polish who is judaism supporter or something. But as you have noticed this is absolutely mergin of my interests and probably I don't know this topic sufficiently. I have been posting because your post doesn't check with my knowledge despite of this I was wrong. Eventually I know that I was wrong.

Edited March 22, 2006 by Shimpu

[Sasanishiki]

Judaism is a religion, first and foremost. Even non-religious Jews like me are circumcised and have Bar-Mitzvahs, totally religious aspects. An overwhelming majority follows the high holidays, even if they are totally secular Jews.

So your last post says that religion has no cultural attachment to it? You don't think that there are specific cultural practices that go along with Judaism? I think you have actually contradicted yourself with the earlier post that I've quoted above.

I'm not having a go here, Moti, I'm just trying to mediate a ground whereby Ossetians and Jews (and anyone else) can be considered in similar terms. I don't agree with OY's original demarcation of the ethnicities of the Russian amateur athletes and the inclusion of 'Jew' as an ethnicity. However, I do think that a cultural grouping could be understood. I guess I am trying to do this to get to the bottom of the SF's interest in the passion that OY shows towards Ossetia. I suppose it also shows we have an interest in information/mis-information about Judaism and Jews....and any other group that we discuss.

[Sasanishiki]

Oh, and before anyone asks, yes, I believe other religions have cultural practices attached to the religion depending on the religion and denomination. Examples would be Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, Anglican etc under Christianity... Each has certain practices in their everday lives or within the yearly cycle that they practice differently from others, that they partake in even if they are not that religious, and which govern aspects of the way they live.

[Kintamayama]

Judaism is a religion, first and foremost. Even non-religious Jews like me are circumcised and have Bar-Mitzvahs, totally religious aspects. An overwhelming majority follows the high holidays, even if they are totally secular Jews.

So your last post says that religion has no cultural attachment to it? You don't think that there are specific cultural practices that go along with Judaism? I think you have actually contradicted yourself with the earlier post that I've quoted above.

No, there are not. There are specific RELIGIOUS practices. Give me an example of one cultural Jewish practice. All I mentioned above are religious practices, rooted in religion (Bible etc..) and not in culture.

[aderechelsea]

our "beloved" orthodox church and our west wing parties always refer to Greeks as Hellenic-Orthodox ...

They are trying to connect the orthodox faith with the greek nation to a point that you have to be othodox to be considered a greek.

this case resembles a bit the one in Israel in which a lot of ethnic groups were mixed in the past and created the nation of Israel (something like in Greece). After all this mixing and breedeing you cannot talk about a certain race of Greeks or Israelis, so you use the religion to identify the nation ... I don;t agree with all these bullshit but this is the way i perceive it.

anyway ... my 2 cents in this one is that a greek is one who was raised by the greek culture standards. American-Greeks are a fine example. They had Greek parents but they have little resemblance to people born and raised in Greece. They like to be called Greeks in order to maintain their roots but thats all ...

and remember ... we have an exciting basho in our hands ... save your energy for the sumorelated topics ... (Shaking head...)

[Kintamayama]

this case resembles a bit the one in Israel in which a lot of ethnic groups were mixed in the past and created the nation of Israel (something like in Greece). After all this mixing and breedeing you cannot talk about a certain race of Greeks or Israelis, so you use the religion to identify the nation ... I don;t agree with all these bullshit but this is the way i perceive it.

This is where you are mistaken. Not a "lot of ethnic groups" were mixed, but JEWS from a lot of different places. This is nothing like Greeks or Irishmen going to the States and being proud of their heritage. Israel IS identified as a Jewish country, due to its Jewish majority and the circumstances in which it came to be after the holocaust. Greek is not a religion. Judaism is.

[Flying_Monkey]

Judaism is a religion, first and foremost. Even non-religious Jews like me are circumcised and have Bar-Mitzvahs, totally religious aspects. An overwhelming majority follows the high holidays, even if they are totally secular Jews.

So your last post says that religion has no cultural attachment to it? You don't think that there are specific cultural practices that go along with Judaism? I think you have actually contradicted yourself with the earlier post that I've quoted above.

No, there are not. There are specific RELIGIOUS practices. Give me an example of one cultural Jewish practice. All I mentioned above are religious practices, rooted in religion (Bible etc..) and not in culture.

Well, ALL religious practices are cultural, as religion is simply one aspect of culture... but of course many religious people will not agree with that!

I am afraid that people are just going to have to accept that we divide up the world we see in different ways. So long as there is nothing disparaging or belittling about this, you can't really legitimiately object to other people's categorisations on an ethical basis. It would only be ethically unacceptable if someone claimed that Ossetians were somehow racially superior to Russians or Jews or whatever categories of people one chooses to use.

No-one has done anything like this. So I suggest we all calm down and resume this Forum's legendary good humour.

And anyway, this topic has gone way off Sumo...

[aderechelsea]

this case resembles a bit the one in Israel in which a lot of ethnic groups were mixed in the past and created the nation of Israel (something like in Greece). After all this mixing and breedeing you cannot talk about a certain race of Greeks or Israelis, so you use the religion to identify the nation ... I don;t agree with all these bullshit but this is the way i perceive it.

This is where you are mistaken. Not a "lot of ethnic groups" were mixed, but JEWS from a lot of different places. This is nothing like Greeks or Irishmen going to the States and being proud of their heritage. Israel IS identified as a Jewish country, due to its Jewish majority and the circumstances in which it came to be after the holocaust. Greek is not a religion. Judaism is.

my point was that as greek-ortodox is considered "one", same is jew and israeli. I don't agree with it but it is a general misconception as you stated.

as for the first part i stand corrected ...

[Kintamayama]

[No-one has done anything like this. So I suggest we all calm down and resume this Forum's legendary good humour.

I guess you haven't been around long ehough to see us when we are REALLY pissed.. This topic, though totally off-topic, charged to an extent and ILLEGAL on this forum, BTW, has remained civilized throughout.

[BuBa]

Kintamayama, to prove your point, I suggest you to turn one rikishi to Judaism and circumcise him. How about one from Satogatake when they arrive in May. Kotomitsuki seems to be a good candidate, what do you think?

Edited March 23, 2006 by BuBa

[Kintamayama]

Kintamayama, to prove your point, I suggest you to turn one rikishi to Judaism and circumcise him. How about one from Satogatake when they arrive in May. Kotomitsuki seems to be a good candidate, what do you think?

OK, I'll try. But maybe Osh is already c'ed?

[BuBa]

OK, I'll try. But maybe Osh is already c'ed?

Why is that? (Shaking head...)

[Kintamayama]

OK, I'll try. But maybe Osh is already c'ed?

Why is that? (Shaking head...)

I was just wondering .

This thread has really gone to the lowest low it possibly can.(Laughing...) .

Edited March 23, 2006 by Kintamayama

[BuBa]

OK, I'll try. But maybe Osh is already c'ed?

Why is that? (Shaking head...)

I was just wondering .

This thread has really gone to the lowest low it possibly can.(Laughing...) .

Nah, it can go lower than that.

[Shibouyama]

Jews are like Christians, if you get my drift.

(Shaking head...)

Not quit right.

You can't be a secular Christian,

but you can be a secular Jew (ethnically Jewish, but no religious beliefs).

I've known several Israelis who hold no religious beliefs, but still refer to themselves as Jews.

Jewish is both an ethnic label and a religious one.

Please take no offense. I mean none. Ethnicity and religion are simply topics I find interesting.

So you say Jew and Ossetian are essentially ethnic groups in the same way?Ossetian is a religion? Judaism is a religion, first and foremost. Even non-religious Jews like me are circumcised and have Bar-Mitzvahs, totally religious aspects. An overwhelming majority follows the high holidays, even if they are totally secular Jews.

What I said was Jewish is both an ethnic and a religious label.

Circumcision and Bar-Mitzvah have religious origins, but that doesn't mean they are exclusively religious in modern function. Religious ceremonies become purely cultural and lose their religious significance. I am circumcised, but not not Jewish. I celebrate Christmas, but not Christ's birth. In Japan, as I'm sure you know people go to the temple or shrine at various times. Does that make them Buddhist and Shinto? No. They may or may not be a practicing follower of these religions. For many people these ceremonies are purely cultural in expression and meaning.

Edited March 23, 2006 by Shibouyama