Keiko telegram

Kintamayama · May 5, 2003

Soken today, nothing yet, maybe later stop. Dejima not participating stop. Asahouryuu does keiko with Chiyotaikai, goes 9-3 against him stop. Musouyama worried about "shoulder", but still optimistic stop. KaioU returns to keiko after injuring his calf a few days ago. stop. goes 19-2 against Ushiomaru and Kaitou (ex-Tanaka) stop. calf heavily taped, cow not in sight stop. expresses wish to participate in soken today, but voices apprehension as well stop. I personally know a few people who would prefer he stayed home and not aggravate the injury stop. For the first time, soken broadcast live on FM radio station stop.

STOP!!

Edited May 5, 2003 by Kintamayama

Yoavoshimaru · May 5, 2003

Kudos on the interesting telegraph message style ;) What was the reason for it?

Kintamayama · May 5, 2003

Sheer boredom, the heat here at the moment, which you surely remember, the wish to be witty, old age, I used to work at the post office - Take your pick..

QttP · May 5, 2003

For proper telegram syntax, you should have left out all punctuation, i.e. not "goes 19-2 against Ushiomaru and Kaitou (ex-Tanaka) stop." but "goes 19-2 against Ushiomaru and Kaitou (ex-Tanaka) stop"

Kaikitsune Makoto · May 5, 2003

Soken news:

Asashoryu dominated Chiyotaikai again with 9-3. Kitanoumi said Chiyotaikai didn't look like a yokozuna at all and scolded him. Also reiterated that Taikai needs overwhelming record in Natsu to be considered for yokozuna. Other yokozuna deliberation council members are starting to agree with Kitanoumi's strong view.

Kaio went 14-0 and looked strong. "I didn't do forward going sumo as I would want to do but I did okay today. I'll adjust my final preparation training so that it is optimal in terms of my recuperating calf injury".

Tochiazuma looked good and got 10-1. Musoyama didn't participate.

Evidently Kaio and Tochiazuma trained with "easier" foes and only Taikai and Shoryu went at it doing sandan-keiko together.

Kintamayama · May 5, 2003

For proper telegram syntax, you should have left out all punctuation, i.e. not "goes 19-2 against Ushiomaru and Kaitou (ex-Tanaka) stop." but "goes 19-2 against Ushiomaru and Kaitou (ex-Tanaka) stop"

I stand corrected. Does this mean I am now fired from Rashut Hadoar?

QttP · May 6, 2003

I stand corrected. Does this mean I am now fired from Rashut Hadoar?

Yes. But don't worry, soon everyone will be fired anyway... :-)

QttP · May 6, 2003

Asashoryu dominated Chiyotaikai again with 9-3. Kitanoumi said Chiyotaikai didn't look like a yokozuna at all and scolded him. Also reiterated that Taikai needs overwhelming record in Natsu to be considered for yokozuna. Other yokozuna deliberation council members are starting to agree with Kitanoumi's strong view.

Probably. I must admit, winning only 20% against Asashoryu, even in training, raises A LOT of questions. But, honbasho is different. And so it is more important for Taikai to look like yokozuna during honbasho. Nobody ever said getting a good result and a yusho will be easy. But if he does, it will look very good, especially in the contrast of his poor training results. He shouldn't worry too much about what the Kyokai says now, and just do his best. His best will be enough for promotion.

Yoavoshimaru · May 6, 2003

:-)

Also reiterated that Taikai needs overwhelming record in Natsu to be considered for yokozuna. Other yokozuna deliberation council members are starting to agree with Kitanoumi's strong view.

Overwhelming is a strong word... I read it as 12-3Y won't be enough? 12-3J certainly not enough? Who knows. But I agree with QttP-zeki that only basho counts: training is fun but maybe taikai is holding back and has some surprises in store

Yubiquitoyama · May 6, 2003

:-/
Also reiterated that Taikai needs overwhelming record in Natsu to be considered for yokozuna. Other yokozuna deliberation council members are starting to agree with Kitanoumi's strong view.

Overwhelming is a strong word... I read it as 12-3Y won't be enough? 12-3J certainly not enough? Who knows. But I agree with QttP-zeki that only basho counts: training is fun but maybe taikai is holding back and has some surprises in store

Well obviously the current tendency is that 14-1Y won't be enough, but really that 12-3Y might not be enough is not so strange. It's worse than what has been needed for a very long time, so the pressure to promote than shouldn't be so strong as to be binding. I would be VERY surprised though if a 13-2Y wouldn't be enough.

QttP · May 6, 2003

13-2Y will be enough.

12-3Y simply won't be. A yusho with less than 13 wins is quite rare lately. 13-2J or 14-1J also seem improbable enough.

12-3J will definitely not be enough. I wouldn't promote him after that, and I'm a fan of his. But 12-3J may leave good chance for promotion in Nagoya, with a yusho and 13 or more wins...

Zentoryu · May 6, 2003

There are a lot of factors at work here. First and foremost, Chiyotaikai has to win the Yusho. If he doesn't, no tsuna. I think we are all in agreement there.

Second, even though Musashimaru's future is uncertain at the moment, there are two Yokozuna on the banzuke already. Thus the Kyokai may be willing, at least for now, to hold Chiyo to a higher standard for promotion. The failure of Wakanohana may still be on their minds. Especially since Chiyo is coming off an abscence in January. Yes, there is a desire for a Japanese Yokozuna, but they may be worried about promoting one who has shown some inconsistency and exhibited injury problems in the past.

They may also intentionally be putting the pressure on him to see if he can handle it, to see if he is truly ready for the tsuna. And it may turn out he can get there with a 13-2.

On the other side of the equation, it would be absolutely unprecedented for a rikishi to not get promoted after having won two yusho in a row. If Chiyo wins the Yusho, which is by no means a certainty, and doesn't get promoted (with say a 12-3) if I'm not mistaken, this would be the first time in the modern history of the sport that this has happened.

With that said, my own personal opinion is that another 12-3Y will not be enough, which would make for a pretty amazing historical footnote if it happened.

13-2Y should do the trick, especially if he can pull off wins over Kaio and Asashoryu (his main competition this basho, as I don't think Tochiazuma or Musoyama will be a major factor in the Yusho race).

14-1Y will definetly get him the tsuna, regardless of Kitanoumi's claims to the contrary.

Yubiquitoyama · May 6, 2003

On the other side of the equation, it would be absolutely unprecedented for a rikishi to not get promoted after having won two yusho in a row. If Chiyo wins the Yusho, which is by no means a certainty, and doesn't get promoted (with say a 12-3) if I'm not mistaken, this would be the first time in the modern history of the sport that this has happened.

I agree completely with Zentoryu's post above.

Just wanted to add about the consecutive yusho that it has happened in what often is referred to as modern days, although it was more than 50 years ago. Tamanishiki didn't get promoted even with 3 consecutive yusho in the 30s and Chiyonoyama didn't get promoted after winning Aki 1949 13-2 and the following basho, Haru 1950 with 12-3, supposedly because his oyakata didn't think he was ready. Both got promoted eventually though.

Edited May 6, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama

Zentoryu · May 6, 2003

Tamanishiki didn't get promoted even with 3 consecutive yusho in the 30s

Really??? Wow. :-( Makes you wonder what the reasons for that were. :-/

As for my own definition of "modern era", I was thinking along the lines of since the the six-basho a year format began (1958 right? ). But I had indeed forgotten about Chiyonoyama (my bad). (Oops! )

Takanobaka · May 7, 2003

On the other side of the equation, it would be absolutely unprecedented for a rikishi to not get promoted after having won two yusho in a row. If Chiyo wins the Yusho, which is by no means a certainty, and doesn't get promoted (with say a 12-3) if I'm not mistaken, this would be the first time in the modern history of the sport that this has happened.

I agree completely with Zentoryu's post above.

Lurker, coming out of the closet here....

On the other hand, it would be pretty well unprecedented (aside from certain people whom the Ass'n were hoping would reach Yokozuna from day 1) for someone that injury prone and inconsistent to get promoted.

I think a 14-1 Y might do it for Taikai, but probably not much less. There have been much better rikishi in the past who weren't promoted from two consecutive strong showings, and they at least want someone who will be able to contend for Yusho on a fairly consistent basis up in the top post. Less than 14-1 probably won't do it for him, but if he can pull off 12-3 or 13-2 both this time and in Nagoya-basho, he has a good shot of being promoted so long as he's able to get a couple of Jun-yusho....but if Asashoryu and Kaio do as well as they're looking so far, this may become an entirely moot point by the end of the month...

Somewhat unrelated (but along the lines of possible future Yokozuna), has anyone seen Futeno (Uchida) wrestle yet? I haven't (didn't get there early enough in Hatsu to check out non-Sekitori), but considering his record so far, size, and college experience, might he end up being a better Yokozuna candidate than the current group of injury-prone Ozeki? Any insight would be appreciated....

Yubiquitoyama · May 7, 2003

There have been much better rikishi in the past who weren't promoted from two consecutive strong showings,

Who would that be?

With consecutive yusho, there hasn't been.

With consecutive at least one yusho, maybe Takanohana and Asahifuji, but none of them had won more yusho than Chiyotaikai at that point of their careers. The fact is that Chiyotaikai, if winning a yusho in Nagoya, is in a situation better than any rikishi who haven't got promotion. In fact, a rikishi winning three yusho without becoming yokozuna is very unusual.

Kotoseiya Yuichi · May 7, 2003

In fact, a rikishi winning three yusho without becoming yokozuna is very unusual.

Indeed. Only Konishiki, Kaio and now Chiyotaikai. Any older examples? I don't remember right away.

Yubiquitoyama · May 7, 2003

In fact, a rikishi winning three yusho without becoming yokozuna is very unusual.

Indeed. Only Konishiki, Kaio and now Chiyotaikai. Any older examples? I don't remember right away.

Takanohana and Musashimaru too. They did become yokozuna eventually, but the Kyokai couldn't know that when making their decision. I think there might be someone more. Of the Ozeki, Shimizugawa also had three yusho without promotion.

Zentoryu · May 7, 2003

Less than 14-1 probably won't do it for him, but if he can pull off 12-3 or 13-2 both this time and in Nagoya-basho, he has a good shot of being promoted so long as he's able to get a couple of Jun-yusho...

Well I can't agree with that. The whole point of the matter is that the Kyokai wants Chiyo to show that he can win consecutive Yusho and look strong while doing it. If he fails to win the Yusho here or in Nagoya, there is absolutely no chance of his getting the Tsuna, even if his record in those basho are 12-3 and 13-2 Jun-Yusho's. I just don't see any possibility of a promotion under those circumstances.

However, if he gets a 13-2 Yusho now and defeats his nemises Kaio and Asashoryu in the process, I don't see how the Kyokai could deny his promotion as this is exactly what they are looking for from him.

but if Asashoryu and Kaio do as well as they're looking so far, this may become an entirely moot point by the end of the month...

I agree with this. Personally I think Asashoryu or Kaio will take the Yusho.

Chiyo winning a second consecutive Yusho? I'll believe it when it happens. :-/

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