Amasumo Rituals

[yamaneko]

Question. I know that the shinto based religious rituals such as the salt, etc. etc. arent carried over to amasumo. But what about the ritual that amasumo has? The washing of the hands and then showing theirs no weapons thing at the beginning. Are there are religious significance to this, or is it just what it is?

I heard that some amasumo rules such as shorts being ok and stuff were to also appease some muslim countries which are very strict. I really cant see those muslim countries as saying its ok to participate in rituals that have religious origins.

I myself am religious, and it would bother my conscience if the origins really do have to do with religion, so i was wondering if someone would put my mind to ease, now that i have joined the US Amasumo federation. :)

[yamaneko]

a lot of the ama sumo guys i know in this country seem to prefer going naked as opposed to shorts...the contenders at least...

[Cammy]

a lot of the ama sumo guys i know in this country seem to prefer going naked as opposed to shorts...the contenders at least...

Naked...well that is strange...they just totally forget about the Muwashi ;-)

[Petr]

Oi! I think we have an Amasumopoint to discuss!

If it is purely a sport, what is wrong with the shorts then?

[Asashosakari]

Oi! I think we have an Amasumopoint to discuss!

If it is purely a sport, what is wrong with the shorts then?

That argument can be extended ad infinitum though. Why not do sumo with long pants? Or, to go a little on the absurd, with a judo dress?

To me, doing sumo means "wearing a mawashi and nothing else", simply because that's what the sport's rules call for. Nobody would go and say, "you know, I'd really love to take part in water diving competitions, but those skimpy swimsuits...can't we just compete in full body suits instead?" I'm not much for political correctness, especially its "you may never offend anybody" offshoot...if somebody feels uncomfortable doing sumo in only a mawashi, there's a simple solution for them - don't do sumo. There's no natural law that says that every single activity in the world must be suitable for every person.

[Jakusotsu]

if somebody feels uncomfortable doing sumo in only a mawashi, there's a simple solution for them - don't do sumo.

It's not only the athlete feeling uncomfortable sometimes. After the shinpan tried to tighten his mawashi three times on day one to no avail, the audience was more than relieved to see New Zealand's William Perenara wearing shorts on day two of the 2005 World Games to be spared another display of his body's more delicate details.

Insisting on a mawashi-only-policy would practically eliminate all women from amasumo as well - a rather regrettable impact for all who ever witnessed their fine competition.

[Asashosakari]

After the shinpan tried to tighten his mawashi three times on day one to no avail, the audience was more than relieved to see New Zealand's William Perenara wearing shorts on day two of the 2005 World Games to be spared another display of his body's more delicate details.

Incompetent equipment usage (no pun intended) by some competitors isn't a particularly strong argument, I'd say. You don't respond by dumbing down the rules, you respond by preparing the athletes better.

Insisting on a mawashi-only-policy would practically eliminate all women from amasumo as well - a rather regrettable impact for all who ever witnessed their fine competition.

Granted, I was primarily thinking of male competitors above. Point taken for women.

[Takemi]

Insisting on a mawashi-only-policy would practically eliminate all women from amasumo as well - a rather regrettable impact for all who ever witnessed their fine competition.

What is stopping the women to continue competing if such policy was in use?

I mean there are many kind of sports in wich women have to compete in "revealing" outfits. for ex. swiming, track and field and not to mention beach wolley boll and tennis.

generally Im pro choice if not to wear shorts or wear. But in case of a no-shorts policy I cant understand those women who is serious about the sport quiting it or not enter the sport because of the policy.

Ok, the sport is male dominated and the women may feel like being objects but thats a whole other issue.

In order to be equals start acting as equals.

[Takemi]

Granted, I was primarily thinking of male competitors above. Point taken for women.

(of course women are a different subject)

why is it different for women?

[Kintamayama]

1)why do people want to use shorts? its nothing to do with improving athletic performance. its solely an embarrasment issue. allowing men (of course women are a different subject) to wear shorts is, in my opinion agreeing with the implication there is something wrong with wearing only a mawashi.

2)petrs point about sport actually works against him. amateur sumo IS just a sport. most people agree that politics and religion should be kept out of sport. permiting religious belief to be something that an athlele can use to change the basic equipment of the sport is just plain wrong to me.

I'd say there are cases of cultural and not religious reasons. Some cultures ( a lot of them in the West..) still consider ass-cheek baring lewd, sports notwithstanding. Even in America, there is always a lot of giggling when first confronted with a bare-assed Sumosan. Ask anyone who was at Vegas..

Try to get any Westerner (NOT in Japan..) to put on a mawashi and get on the mat. Even if we're talking about people who want to do Sumo and have come explicitily to do that, 99% of first-timers would refuse.. I think it's a case of embarrassment more than anything else.

Of course, there also are places where religion bans this, but they are few.

Edited January 27, 2006 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama]

why is it different for women?

So, you would expect women who want to do Sumo to do it just like the men, mawashi and topless?

I saw a movie once where.. forget it.

[Takemi]

why is it different for women?

So, you would expect women who want to do Sumo to do it just like the men, mawashi and topless?

I saw a movie once where.. forget it.

I was talking about the non shorts . The women can use some kind of top.

the reason to wear a top? for practically purposes.. a lot of bouncing and stuff.

[Petr]

I am happy to see the discussion flourish.

I don't wear shorts because I would feel like I've lost another battle to what Nishi calls 'prudishness'. I hate everyone asking me, if I don't mind showing my hips. No, all gaijins are not like the guy in shikofunjatta. I hope shorts won't become compulsory in the sport. That would be like loosing the whole war.

On the other hand, all our current Japanese club members have started to wear shorts and I do not protest. (They don't like that images from amasumo tournaments are displayed among XXX pictures on homosexual sites.) Some say if you can't acept mawashi-only, don't do the sport. Actually, that is the main reason for many people not to try it. I think that's a pitty. There's more to sumo than naked hips. But as I suggested, it would be too bad if everyone was forced to wear shorts. Those who would mind others exposing themselves should really ignore this discipline.

I have the same opinion on women sumo. Cover what you "need" (given by your culture/religion/prudishness). (Exposing some body parts in public is mostly forbidden by some prudish laws anyway.)

I would love to now what was Japan really like before Meiji. For example, how did the Japanese public look at the mawashi then? Any records? Jonosuke?

[yamaneko]

Nishinoshima, thanks for that link. Exactly what i was looking for.

As for the shorts debate, I do use shorts personally because yes, i am embarrased, and my wife would be embarrased if i went bareback. Im not 100% american, my wife is not even 1% american, and in some cultures it is prude i guess to show your buns. But i guess lots of different countries have different standards. Like in japan and europe its not uncommon before to see boobs on commercials, gameshows, etc.

[Mark Buckton]

i know my feeling comes from having grown up in what was basically a church run state in the 1970's and 1980's.

i should stop now before i break forum rules regarding discussing religion or offend any members who do have strong religious convictions (certainly not my intention).

interesting on the ''church run state'' bit as Ireland abolished Church taxes (wait for Moti's 'taxi' pun) about 150/160 years back. UK followed suit in 1868 and Germany still has Church taxes to the best of my knowledge.

Presumably, given the socio-religious differences between the nations, the difference must be in the 'type' of Christianity running the state - obvious from the nations named but also the willingness of those 'run' to remain so? (No, no, no...) Religious imperialism there? Not a road I'll venture down as way off topic.

On the whole mawashi issue - the first time I tried one on I didn't even think about the bare butt concept. I was entering a sport, this was the way it is done - that's that.

Don't believe those doing rugby should be wearing pads and the like either. Next thing you know, the high jump competitors from nations with statistically proven shorter people (at the Olympics) will be given a lower bar to jump over based on their limited vertical stature. A block in front to lauch from perhaps?

[Sasanishiki]

I would love to now what was Japan really like before Meiji. For example, how did the Japanese public look at the mawashi then? Any records? Jonosuke?

Well, very basically, men wore fundoshi (jockstrap type underwear - not as thick as mawashi) or went naked in the lower classes - peasants, labourers, outcastes. At best they wore yukata (cotton kmono). Merchnats were clothed. Samurai etc wore kimono that indicated their status in society.

This was a time when there was mixed-bathing, public nudity, urinating in the streets (ok, so it still happens) and other acts that were only outlawed or frowned upon when the puritanical Christian values of modesty and an aversion to nudity came to Japan from 1854 onwards. Japanese laws reflected this not because of religious reasons within Japan, but because of wanting to be taken seriously as a modernising nation. They emulated European countries and their values associated with display and use of the body.

[Mark Buckton]

scary that priests could be so powerful and not be hoofed out.

[Kintamayama]

interesting on the ''church run state'' bit as Ireland abolished Church taxes (wait for Moti's 'taxi' pun)

Are my puns THAT bad? (Applauding...)

Edited January 29, 2006 by Kintamayama

[Sasanishiki]

Can we get off Ireland and come back to the discussion about sumo rituals?

[Sasanishiki]

the thing is i could almost understand someone being embarrased wearing a mawashi if everyone had an adonis like body but take a look around any sumo club and whatever hang ups you have about the condition of your body will soon vanish.

Couldn't a gree more. I have always been kind of chunky compared to all my firends. Hanging out with sumo teams, particularly my NZ boys, makes me feel positively svelte!

[Petr]

I would love to now what was Japan really like before Meiji. For example, how did the Japanese public look at the mawashi then? Any records? Jonosuke?

Well, very basically, men wore fundoshi (jockstrap type underwear - not as thick as mawashi) or went naked in the lower classes - peasants, labourers, outcastes. At best they wore yukata (cotton kmono). Merchnats were clothed. Samurai etc wore kimono that indicated their status in society.

This was a time when there was mixed-bathing, public nudity, urinating in the streets (ok, so it still happens) and other acts that were only outlawed or frowned upon when the puritanical Christian values of modesty and an aversion to nudity came to Japan from 1854 onwards. Japanese laws reflected this not because of religious reasons within Japan, but because of wanting to be taken seriously as a modernising nation. They emulated European countries and their values associated with display and use of the body.

:'-( :'-( :'-(

Let's gambarize to restore the times before the 'restoration'!

Interestingly, I found the other day on a Japanese non-sumo BBS opinions that fundoshi is the wierdest part of Japananese culture. That's how they see it now.

[Petr]

What about a defending word from the forum members who practice sumo in shorts/underwear/swimsuit?

Btw. let's celebrate the first amasumo "hot topic". (Showing respect...) (Blushing...)