Ozeki Takanohana in '93

[ikishima]

I was doing a hakkeyoi search and came across the results from May '93 and July '93. During the Natsu basho Taka won his 3rd Yusho and at Nagoya he lost a playoff but finished with what looks like a good record of 13-2. Does anyone remember why he wasn't promoted? Was it a big deal at the time?

Didn't the sumo world want a Japanese Yokazuna to go against Akebono or did they think that it was two soon to have a 2nd yokazuna?

I would love to hear what the veterans on the forum remember from back then.

[aderechelsea]

not a veteran myself but i will make my guess...

they thought he was too young to put him in such a high position where there is no turning back. He hadn't proven himself as much as needed.

Imagine Taka having a bad streak of basho after his Yokozuna promotion and having to retire from sumo. That would be a terrible fluke by the Kyokai if they had promoted him without the "2 yusho in a row" rule.

a second guess is that they weren't SO desperate for a Japanese Yokozuna back then ....

History proved that their decision was right and anyone who deserves to be called a Yokozuna will get there sooner or later.

same goes for Ozeki promotions (Wakanosato and Mickey know what i mean).

[Azumashida]

History proved that their decision was right and anyone who deserves to be called a Yokozuna will get there sooner or later.

same goes for Ozeki promotions (Wakanosato and Mickey know what i mean).

I don't see how history proved they were right since they are by definition always right - both ways, whether the rikishi is eventually promoted or not. :-)

[aderechelsea]

you got a point there.

[Yangnomazuma]

I was doing a hakkeyoi search and came across the results from May '93 and July '93. During the Natsu basho Taka won his 3rd Yusho and at Nagoya he lost a playoff but finished with what looks like a good record of 13-2. Does anyone remember why he wasn't promoted? Was it a big deal at the time?

Didn't the sumo world want a Japanese Yokazuna to go against Akebono or did they think that it was two soon to have a 2nd yokazuna?

I would love to hear what the veterans on the forum remember from back then.

This was an era where Yokozuna promotion was quite strict. Bottom line in my mind though was that the Kyokai was convinced that Taka was the real deal and there was no need to rush promotion. I'm sure there are other reasons as well, but I'd wager this was primary in the thought process.

[Flying_Monkey]

This was an era where Yokozuna promotion was quite strict. Bottom line in my mind though was that the Kyokai was convinced that Taka was the real deal and there was no need to rush promotion. I'm sure there are other reasons as well, but I'd wager this was primary in the thought process.

I totally agree. From what I can recall, not many people were calling for Takanohana to be promoted after he lost the play-offs, but they knew his time would come. His talent was obvious.

Talking of the ease of promotion - it seems almost indecently quick these days. Kotooshu would not have got to ozeki so quickly back then, I suspect - both because of the stricter enforcement of the rules by the Kyokai and the stronger competition.

[Doitsuyama]

Talking of the ease of promotion - it seems almost indecently quick these days. Kotooshu would not have got to ozeki so quickly back then, I suspect - both because of the stricter enforcement of the rules by the Kyokai and the stronger competition.

Sorry to bust you, but I seriously doubt a 36-9 record (all in sanyaku) with three jun-yusho would lead to a non-promotion in any era. The onus is really on you to show the opposite. Regarding the strength of competition, it was pretty much a joke around the time Takanohana was ozeki. Just look at the joi-jin at that time and the number of yokozuna and ozeki.

[Flying_Monkey]

Talking of the ease of promotion - it seems almost indecently quick these days. Kotooshu would not have got to ozeki so quickly back then, I suspect - both because of the stricter enforcement of the rules by the Kyokai and the stronger competition.

Sorry to bust you, but I seriously doubt a 36-9 record (all in sanyaku) with three jun-yusho would lead to a non-promotion in any era. The onus is really on you to show the opposite. Regarding the strength of competition, it was pretty much a joke around the time Takanohana was ozeki. Just look at the joi-jin at that time and the number of yokozuna and ozeki.

I'm thinking more of the spped with which he came up from the lower ranks... okay so everyone is different in terms of when they 'peak', but look at the rise someone like Chiyonofuji in comparison.

Thinking back though, I guess you are right in terms of competition in that year - it always tends to elide in my mind now with the wonderful time in the late eighties...

[Ikkakujuu]

Talking of the ease of promotion - it seems almost indecently quick these days. Kotooshu would not have got to ozeki so quickly back then, I suspect - both because of the stricter enforcement of the rules by the Kyokai and the stronger competition.

Sorry to bust you, but I seriously doubt a 36-9 record (all in sanyaku) with three jun-yusho would lead to a non-promotion in any era. The onus is really on you to show the opposite. Regarding the strength of competition, it was pretty much a joke around the time Takanohana was ozeki. Just look at the joi-jin at that time and the number of yokozuna and ozeki.

I'm thinking more of the spped with which he came up from the lower ranks... okay so everyone is different in terms of when they 'peak', but look at the rise someone like Chiyonofuji in comparison.

Thinking back though, I guess you are right in terms of competition in that year - it always tends to elide in my mind now with the wonderful time in the late eighties...

You are actually saying that all rikishi are weaker now? I mean, having in mind that Kotooshu has always been KK (except march last year when making a sanyaki debut). I seriously doubt it. My opinion is that his structure is responcible for his fast rise. I don't think that there are rikishi in the past with that height, speed and long limbs. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jakusotsu]

You are actually saying that all rikishi are weaker now? I mean, having in mind that Kotooshu has always been KK...

This line of thought actually backfires: given that all rikishi are weaker, it's easier to always get KK for the fox among the chicken.

[Asashosakari]

I'm thinking more of the spped with which he came up from the lower ranks... okay so everyone is different in terms of when they 'peak', but look at the rise someone like Chiyonofuji in comparison.

Using Chiyonofuji as the point of comparison for anything tends to be less than useful, IMO. His late peak combined with his extreme longevity was really unprecedented for a yokozuna-level rikishi* in the modern era, and I doubt we're going to see anything like that again, much as I wouldn't mind to, say, see Kaio still win yusho at age 35.

* A sudden jump in performance between 27 and 30 years of age and then going on more or less strong until one's mid-30s is really more the province of your typical journeyman rikishi, not Ozeki or even Yokozuna.

Edited January 20, 2006 by Asashosakari

[Ikkakujuu]

You are actually saying that all rikishi are weaker now? I mean, having in mind that Kotooshu has always been KK...

This line of thought actually backfires: given that all rikishi are weaker, it's easier to always get KK for the fox among the chicken.

I actually doubt that all rikishi are weaker now. It can probably be measured using the numbers of candidates for becoming a rikishi. If the numbers are falling, then voila there is a point. However my sences are that the numbers actually are growing, based on the overall population growth. Me bet is that this growth outpaces the probable fall in the percentage of young men wishing to make a cereer in sumo.

[ikishima]

So Takanohana winning his 3rd yusho and losing the next in a playoff was not enough for promotion. I can't imagine it not being enough today. Was it his age? Was it that he was so new as an Ozeki? What excuse did they use? Was his behavior not yet dignified enough?

Sorry to bust you, but I seriously doubt a 36-9 record (all in sanyaku) with three jun-yusho would lead to a non-promotion in any era. The onus is really on you to show the opposite. Regarding the strength of competition, it was pretty much a joke around the time Takanohana was ozeki. Just look at the joi-jin at that time and the number of yokozuna and ozeki.

All old farts tend to complain about kids these days not being up to snuff with the greats of the past. I agree with Doitsuyama, there is no doubt that Osh earned his promotion and would have in any era.

Edited January 20, 2006 by ikishima

[AsaMoe]

I have no clue about this time, but looking back, i have the impression, that it was clear to everyone, that Takanohana would become a greater Yokuzuna.

Back then, the could have had the idea, that a Dai-Yokuzuna should have higher standards than a normal Yokuzuna.

Finally, it looked like they were correct, when Takohana made one of the most sucessfull Yokuzuna promotions (actually noone else made more than 28 wins before promotion)

[charliki]

Imagine Taka having a bad streak of basho after his Yokozuna promotion and having to retire from sumo. That would be a terrible fluke by the Kyokai if they had promoted him without the "2 yusho in a row" rule.

It was a real danger: they could have lost a diamond. They were not wrong to wait. Even if Taka deserved the tsuna. (It was "to move back for better jumping" like we say in french.)

Edited January 26, 2006 by charliki