A little bit about records!

[Senpai]

I was serching and searching forum and couldn't find the topic needed and I have read contraversal articles about records - fastest rise from mae-zumo to sekitori, fastest rise to makuuchi and fastest to sanyaku. Who are top three in every those records with what records and where Kotooshu and Baruto stand with same records?

(I was stupid...)

[Doitsuyama]

I'm quoting Asashosakari here, as the table is no good anymore in the original posting:

The following tables are stolen from...err, courtesy of various editions of NSK's banzuke topics.1) Fewest Tournaments from Pro to Juryo Debut (rikishi making their pro debuts from 1958, debuts from Makushita excluded)

	Rikishi	Basho	Pro Debut	Juryo Debut	HighestRank
1	Kotetsuyama(Itai)	6	9/78	9/79	Komusubi
2	Asahifuji	7	1/81	3/82	Yokozuna
3	Konishiki	8	7/82	11/83	Ozeki
4	Tochiazuma	9	11/94	5/96	(Ozeki)
4	Kotooshu	9	11/02	5/04	(J10)
6	Takahanada(Takanohana)	10	3/88	11/89	Yokozuna
6	Asashoryu	10	1/99	9/00	(Yokozuna)
6	Roho	10	5/02	1/04	(J03)
6	Tokitenku	10	7/02	3/04	(J10)
10	Musashimaru	11	9/89	7/91	Yokozuna
11	Akebono	12	3/88	3/90	Yokozuna
11	Wakahanada(Wakanohana)	12	3/88	3/90	Yokozuna
11	Kokkai	12	5/01	5/03	(M07)
14	Hagiwara	13	3/02	5/04	(J12)

(I'm not sure if anybody else took 13 basho to Juryo debut, as I don't have lists of rikishi for >12 basho, but I wanted to add Hagiwara anyway because it seems appropriate to list him.)2) Fewest Tournaments from Pro to Makuuchi Debut (rikishi making their pro debuts from 1958, debuts from Makushita excluded)

	Rikishi	Basho	Pro Debut	Makuuchi Debut	HighestRank
1	Kotetsuyama(Itai)	12	9/78	9/80	Komusubi
1	Konishiki	12	7/82	7/84	Ozeki
1	Tochiazuma	12	11/94	11/96	(Ozeki)
1	Asashoryu	12	1/99	1/01	(Yokozuna)
5	Asahifuji	13	1/81	3/83	Yokozuna
5	Takahanada(Takanohana)	13	3/88	5/90	Yokozuna
5	Musashimaru	13	9/89	11/91	Yokozuna
8	Wakahanada(Wakanohana)	15	3/88	9/90	Yokozuna
8	Akebono	15	3/88	9/90	Yokozuna
10	Kokkai	16	5/01	1/04	(M07)

Of course the tables aren't really up to date, as we saw a lot of fast risers in the last year. Kotooshu now leads the second table with 11 basho. I guess his 14 basho to Sanyaku are pretty high too. Tokitenku is tied second with 12 basho to Makuuchi. Roho also is in the second table now with 14 basho to Makuuchi, with Hagiwara at 16 basho to Makuuchi. Toyonoshima also has 16 basho to Makuuchi (with 14 to Juryo). Yoshikaze needed 9 basho to Juryo (like Kotooshu) and was set to storm through Juryo in two basho to continue to equal Kotooshu, but the injury on day 14 likely stopped that. Now we have Shiraishi with 9 basho and Baruto with 8 basho to Juryo.Kotoshogiku was a bit too slow with 15 basho to Juryo and 18 to Makuuchi as were Hakurozan and Katayama, both with 14 basho to Juryo and 19 to Makuuchi.

[Senpai]

Ok, thanks for that large part of information .. but now I'm confused again (stupid me .. forgive me) how is the number of bashos counted from the beginning to juryo as this was Bart's 7th basho? Is the first basho in juryo counted in or what?

Yeah, I know stupid stupid me .. but still?!

[Zuikakuyama]

Besides the preponderance of foreigners in the two tables, it seems to me that the speed records are being broken right and left in the recent years.

I am sure the influx of the foreign rikishis have something to do with the speed, but it seems that for the Japanese rikishis, records are being broken as well (ie. tochiazuma, hagiwara, yoshikaze, shirashi).

Can anyone shed any light on why no one from the 60s & 70s are on the list. We know that there are many excellent rikishis back then. Were they more conservative with promotions back then?

[Doitsuyama]

Ok, thanks for that large part of information .. but now I'm confused again (stupid me .. forgive me) how is the number of bashos counted from the beginning to juryo as  this was Bart's 7th basho? Is the first basho in juryo counted in or what?

Yeah, I know stupid stupid me .. but still?!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No this was already Baruto's 8th basho. His first basho (hatsu dohyo) was in mae-zumo, his second basho in Jonokuchi and so on.

[Doitsuyama]

Can anyone shed any light on why no one from the 60s & 70s are on the list.  We know that there are many excellent rikishis back then.  Were they more conservative with promotions back then?

This would be my assumption as well. Take Taiho for example. His hatsu dohyo was 1956.09. Then he was Sd1e in 1958.03, the eighth basho already. Here he had an 8-0 (yusho after kettei-sen), leading just to Ms31w. Here he had a 7-1 (playoff, but no yusho). His first Juryo basho was 1959.05 at J20w. Even a big kachi-koshi didn't necessarily mean a big promotion, for example he got from J10e only to J3e with a 13-2.

That's only very loose evidence though.

[Chiyozakura]

The reason why there are so many rikishi these days competing for those records is also that in former times very few rikishi started their careers older than 16. I doubt that a guy like Itai (Kotetsuyama) would have been nearly as quick uo the ranks had he started at 15. Most foreigners and the college rikishi however start later and have a big advantage size- and strengthwise.

[Asashosakari]

The reason why there are so many rikishi these days competing for those records is also that in former times very few rikishi started their careers older than 16. I doubt that a guy like Itai (Kotetsuyama) would have been nearly as quick uo the ranks had he started at 15. Most foreigners and the college rikishi however start later and have a big advantage size- and strengthwise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suspect that even Tochiazuma profited from that, since the trend to start after high-school is an even more recent development than the influx of college rikishi, so even at age 18 he probably had quite a physical advantage over his initial Jonokuchi and Jonidan opposition (besides the fact that he also had talent in spades, naturally).

And of course, back in the 1990s most promising college rikishi got their start at Ms60Td, so they never even show up in these "fastest to..." rankings. Guys like Shiraishi and Yoshikaze (probably also Tokitenku) would almost definitely have been Tsukedashi starters 5 or 10 years earlier.

[Naganoyama]

No this was already Baruto's 8th basho. His first basho (hatsu dohyo) was in mae-zumo, his second basho in Jonokuchi and so on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have noticed that on the NSK site, rikishi who made their debut a while back are listed as making their debut in their first jonokuchi basho, whereas the more recent starters are listed as making their debut in their mae-zumo basho. What is the reason for this? Is it an error or is there some rational explanation?

[Asashosakari]

I have noticed that on the NSK site, rikishi who made their debut a while back are listed as making their debut in their first jonokuchi basho, whereas the more recent starters are listed as making their debut in their mae-zumo basho.  What is the reason for this?  Is it an error or is there some rational explanation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can you give an example for this different treatment of older rikishi?

[Naganoyama]

I have noticed that on the NSK site, rikishi who made their debut a while back are listed as making their debut in their first jonokuchi basho, whereas the more recent starters are listed as making their debut in their mae-zumo basho.  What is the reason for this?  Is it an error or is there some rational explanation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can you give an example for this different treatment of older rikishi?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh dear, I can't. I used to keep a list of such oddities on my old PC but I can't find it now. I have just spent half an hour trying to find even _one_ example and cannot. Must be my error.