Asashoryu robbed?

[Otokonoyama]

With all the kyujo rikishi this tournament, a "do-over" or two would be good for the paying customers. When the day's action consistently finishes at least 5 minutes before the usual ending time, and several matches in recent days could have gone either way, you gotta take the mulligan!

[Otokonoyama]

I was there yesterday, and the crowd was chanting "One more time! One more time!" Why snub the good people of the fair city Nagoya?

[Shomishuu]

The shinitai talk surely takes me back to the Ryu-Kotonowaka match last year, since I wound up in the middle of a great discussion of that outcome on SML. I took (and still do) the position that the whole concept of shinitai is so subjective that it should only be invoked in the most extreme, and undeniable circumstances. In all other cases, you should go with the basic rule: whoever touches down or touches out first loses. Since shinitai could have been invoked in both of these matches under discussion, but wasn't; it seems as if the NSK is operating with this attitude as well.

[Zuikakuyama]

For what it is worth, I dont think this was a case of shintai. Both rikishis were shintai.

I think what is relevant is if Kokkai's foot broke the imaginary plane of the dohyo, as if it had been on flat ground instead of being raised 2 feet.

Initally, when looking at the NHK feed, I thought Kokkai's foot had broken the imaginary plane before Shoryu hit the ground, but looking at the photos, it seems pretty clear to me that Kokkai's foot had not broken the plane. So he should have won.

[madorosumaru]

QUOTE FROM DAY 11

By an unbiased observer:

○栃東 - 結びの一番は取り直しでもよかったように見える。

Tochiazuma: The way I see it, the last bout of the day could very well have been called a torinaoshi.

[_the_mind_]

i have seen several matchs where Chiyotaikai did a puriwet (sp?) with his foot on the end of the straw while the other person was falling down( and or out) and they did not give Chiyo the loss eventhough he broke the plain of being "out" of the doh-yo. .... i dont see where this is much different. it seems more of just who touches first and less of if it is inside or outside the dohyo. as said by ShiroiKuma-san

Edited July 21, 2005 by _the_mind_

[Otokonoyama]

QUOTE FROM DAY 11

By an unbiased observer:

○栃東 -  結びの一番は取り直しでもよかったように見える。

Tochiazuma:  The way I see it, the last bout of the day could very well have been called a torinaoshi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Too bad Azuma wasn't invited to join the mono-ii (Shaking head...)

Edited July 21, 2005 by Otokonoyama

[madorosumaru]

Too bad Azuma wasn't invited to join the mono-ii (Shaking head...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps, a newly-organized Ozumo Rikishi Association will demand that each party has an advocate at mono-ii. Takanohana can include that with his other pipedream reforms. (Enjoying a beer...)

[Shomishuu]

For what it is worth, I dont think this was a case of shintai.  Both rikishis were shintai.

I think what is relevant is if Kokkai's foot broke the imaginary plane of the dohyo, as if it had been on flat ground instead of being raised 2 feet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can actually make a case for both rikishi being shinitai in ALMOST all cases where it could be invoked, since the one who touched first was also out of control - that's why he touched first!

I have raised the 'imaginary plane' question several times on SF and SML and each time, there was no documentation presented that shows that it has any relevance. Several rules have been presented but no reference to this concept was found. Therefore, the concensus is always that it is not relevant. It just seems as if it SHOULD be relevant, in our eyes...but it is not.

[Otokonoyama]

Too bad Azuma wasn't invited to join the mono-ii (Whistling...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps, a newly-organized Ozumo Rikishi Association will demand that each party has an advocate at mono-ii. Takanohana can include that with his other pipedream reforms. (Whistling...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bravo! Well done (Applauding...)

I was a bit confused with Takanohana's stance on sumo-doh contrasting with his snub of Tomozuna oyakata. Apparently a phonecall was made by Takanohana to Tomozuna beya (while the oyakata was out). It was assumed the call was in apology...and now the event is "water under the bridge". It's very difficult to reconcile Takanohana's words & his actions (In a state of confusion...)

A bit (You are going off-topic...) but (Whistling...) ...more fodder for Jonosuke's recent topic (Nodding yes...)

Edited July 21, 2005 by Otokonoyama

[Otokonoyama]

It's very hot today in Nagoya (high of 35 [95 fahrenheit]), and it's the full moon. Nothing strange could possibly happen...

[Guest Laqa]

QUOTE FROM DAY 11

By an unbiased observer:

○栃東 -  結びの一番は取り直しでもよかったように見える。

Tochiazuma:  The way I see it, the last bout of the day could very well have been called a torinaoshi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And this time tochiazuma was not unbiased, and he's got the win without any re-match:

Kyushu 2004. Kokkai - Tochiazuma

Slow Motion

[Kintamayama]

After the loss yesterday, Asashouryuu was totally wild with anger. "Really funny. I saw him go out before me. Shinitai, whatever, it should at least have been a torinaoshi", he hissed. He was all red in the face and repeatedly shouted "chikushou!!" (damn it, sh**t, you get the drift..) As he was falling, he was looking at Kokkai's feet and chose not to use "kabaite" (using his hands to break a fall, regarded as a win if it looks like you were in charge, even if your hands went down first-a defense against injury) but that didn't help him. Usually after a match, he lets his hair down and talks to the press, but not yesterday. He went directly to his car and was heard saying "I'm going to do a lot of keiko, so I can beat the $%#$^ out of him (つぶしてやる) next basho!!".

Chikushow:

Edited July 21, 2005 by Kintamayama

[QttP]

About shinitai/kabaite:

I'd think, like some here do, that this rule would apply only whenever there is a clear attacker and defender, like if one throws the other or falls down on him or lifts him up and out.

If I've learned anything from watching Chiyotaikai in the past three years is that in cases of pushing versus pulling, these rules are never applied. One may think that the pusher should be considered the attacker and be given the edge in close situations, but it's never the case. They always judge by who touched down first, and if they can determine who touched down first, even by a split of a second, they'll give the win to the other guy. Only if they really cannot, they'll make it a torinaoshi.

About the "descend below imaginary level of the dohyo" (Shiroikuma's remark):

I'm still unsure about this. If indeed it is as Shiroikuma says, then there is no question that Kokkai has won. However, I'm still not sure that this is the case, because I believe I saw a few fights where the winner was determined or do-tai was announced by this rule. Could be wrong and can't remember any particular cases anyway.

About Chiyotaikai's pirouettes (the_mind's remark):

In none of these pirouetes did Chiyotaikai's other foot descend below the level of the dohyo, so there was no question. It's crystal clear that if you have any part of your body in the air outside of the dohyo, it's not a loss. The question (to me at least) is what happens when some part descends below dohyo level on the outside.

Conclusion:

From Hakuyobaku's pic it seems (although the angle might be misleading) that Kokkai's foot is indeed still above dohyo level, while Asashoryu is already flat on the floor. If that's what the judges saw, giving the victory to Kokkai was the only thing I'd expect from them, considering all the above.

[Doitsuyama]

About the "descend below imaginary level of the dohyo" (Shiroikuma's remark):

I'm still unsure about this. If indeed it is as Shiroikuma says, then there is no question that Kokkai has won. However, I'm still not sure that this is the case, because I believe I saw a few fights where the winner was determined or do-tai was announced by this rule. Could be wrong and can't remember any particular cases anyway.

There is fresh evidence considering this point. Just watch Takamisakari-Futeno from today. Takamisakari's arm very clearly was outstretched and below the imaginary level before Futeno touched down. Since Takamisakari touched ground later, he got the win in a mono-ii.

[madorosumaru]

There is fresh evidence considering this point. Just watch Takamisakari-Futeno from today. Takamisakari's arm very clearly was outstretched and below the imaginary level before Futeno touched down. Since Takamisakari touched ground later, he got the win in a mono-ii.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE FROM DAY 12

Takamisakari: (Mouth agape upon hearing shinpan's decision) I had half given up and was resigned to a defeat.

[Hakuyobaku]

Takamisakari: (Mouth agape upon hearing shinpan's decision) I had half given up and was resigned to a defeat.

Takamisakari is a good actor most of the times..

[Kintamayama]

QUOTE FROM DAY 12

Takamisakari: (Mouth agape upon hearing shinpan's decision)  I had half given up and was resigned to a defeat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mouth agape and all:

Before the gaping:

Edited July 21, 2005 by Kintamayama

[_the_mind_]

About Chiyotaikai's pirouettes (the_mind's remark):

In none of these pirouetes did Chiyotaikai's other foot descend below the level of the dohyo, so there was no question. It's crystal clear that if you have any part of your body in the air outside of the dohyo, it's not a loss. The question (to me at least) is what happens when some part descends below dohyo level on the outside.

true but i have also seen some where he(Chiyo) jumped out and landed second and was the winner. he almost makes it a point to jump if they both are going out, as if the rule is without question just who lands first regaurdless of in or out. simular to but not the same as the said match that is topic of discussion.