European Sumo Manners

[Mark Buckton]

Whilst there has been much written on the supposed bad manners of some European rikishi recently - myself in regards to the World Youth event at the Kokugikan and many on Roho etc at the pro level I think one voice is deafening in its absense.

Shiroikuma's. Shiroikuma-san - would be interesting to know where you stand on much of this critisicm over some of your 'deshi'

We often hear of your close connections, how you were involved in getting them into the game and how they keep in constant touch.

Would be interesting to know how you see their behaviour as indicative of something Petr mentioned elsewhere about eastern Europeans not respecting the cultures of others - presuming their recent actions are seen as bad manners in the first place. As you know, it is as much the teacher who is responsible for his student's actions as the student himself under Japanese cultural concepts.

[Petr]

I wasn't the one who came up with the criticism of Eastern Europeans not respecting other cultures. I think that something like that was originally suggested by you in the Roho thread. I thought it wasn't true at least for my case. (I know many 'West Europeans' consider Prague - which lies west of Wien - to belong to 'Eastern Europe'.)

Sorry if I was unclear.

'The mind', claimed that it's because 'some parts of the world are much more curtious then others'. I don't think so. You should judge cultures according to their standards. Universal comparisons like this one are meaningless. For example, deep bowing is not a measure of good manners in Europe as quiet eating is not a measure in Japan.

Nevertheless, all Ozumo wrestlers should try to follow the what is considered good manners in Ozumo (which, however, might not correspond with the perceptions of gaijin fans anyway.)

[_the_mind_]

I wasn't the one who came up with the criticism of Eastern Europeans not respecting other cultures. I think that something like that was originally suggested by you in the Roho thread. I thought it wasn't true at least for my case. (I know many 'West Europeans' consider Prague - which lies west of Wien - to belong to 'Eastern Europe'.)

Sorry if I was unclear.

'The mind', claimed that it's because 'some parts of the world are much more curtious then others'. I don't think so. You should judge cultures according to their standards. Universal comparisons like this one are meaningless. For example, deep bowing is not a measure of good manners in Europe as quiet eating is not a measure in Japan.

Nevertheless, all Ozumo wrestlers should try to follow the what is considered good manners in Ozumo (which, however, might not correspond with the perceptions of gaijin fans anyway.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Petr i was refering more to the fact when you are a forgien national in another country you must acknowledge all local customs and perform them as much or more so then the locals do so as not to be thought as indignent to such things. as a forgiener you will be scrutinized by the locals anyway and if you do not recognize the cultural traditions it will be especially noticed by locals. this is more of a difference in cultures. the general populous of some countries (like the US) are going to have a completely different concept of what sportsmanship is then what it is in Japan. as such someone who is from the US is unlikely to remember to recognize such things(if not of asian heiratage) when loseing if they arent thinking about it, or a naturally more curtious person. this may be a direct result of the person and less of the culture but when you come from a country who bows out of respect as apposed to one who doesnt, it will be persceived as that you arent respecting the people you should. which is foremost in what you should be doing, as you are a guest in their country. right?

i had a professor born in france, lived there his whole life untill he went to grad school(23 years old) and he told us that french people are in general very rude, to even other french people. as such is it not safe to say some cultures ARE more polite to people(especially forgieners) they dont know then others? if you were a forgiener visiting france and tried to get help, you would probably get less cooperation then you would in an asian country where people tend to be more willing to help others, is that not correct? i havent been to japan, but that is what everyone i know who has been has told me. that is the gist of what i said. that some cultures are in general just more willing to be helpful then others and i would view that as the ability to be more curtious to people you dont know. go to New York city, and have a random crime be committied on the street like a shooting and see how many people stop to help you. very few if any would even move to not step on you. i just cant beleive such rudeness is a worldwide happening. ... i was refering more to the fact if you are a guest in a country you should be MORE courtious as apposed to less courtious. at least i know i would go out of my way to do it. maybe no one else thinks this?

[Petr]

Again, I agree that foreigners should respect the customs of the local culture especially in Ozumo, because traditions are from a great part what makes it meaningful. (In other situations foreigners trying to behave as Japanese are often funny or disappointing for the locals who would prefer to see real gaijins as they imagine them.)

Yes, Japanese are usually very helpful to foreigners but I am still not sure if you can say they are more polite. Formally, they pay all the necessary respect to you according to you social status but if they don't truly respect you, you will feel it clearly anyway.The Japanese culture has surely many great aspects but I don't want to start such a big topic here.

[slt]

i had a professor born in france, lived there his whole life untill he went to grad school(23 years old) and he told us that french people are in general very rude, to even other french people. as such is it not safe to say some cultures ARE more polite to people(especially forgieners) they dont know then others? if you were a forgiener visiting france and tried to get help, you would probably get less cooperation then you would in an asian country where people tend to be more willing to help others, is that not correct? i havent been to japan, but that is what everyone i know who has been has told me. that is the gist of what i said. that some cultures are in general just more willing to be helpful then others and i would view that as the ability to be more curtious to people you dont know. go to New York city, and have a random crime be committied on the street like a shooting and see how many people stop to help you. very few if any would even move to not step on you.

(I am not worthy...)

Are you really basing your entire perception of the French on what your professor once told you ? I myself drop by France quite frequently, and I am appalled to read your post. I expect that you will get some strong reactions from the French people reading this forum, but in the meantime, I advise you to edit your post.

Generalizing on an entire culture is impossible, and there are rude and polite people in every country. In addition, things change very much depending on where you are, especially between bigger or smaller cities. Asking for directions in Tokyo, for example, will not be as easy as in the japanese countryside, and the same may be true of Paris and New York - although I have spent time in all three places and cannot say I was treated rudely in any of them, as a general rule.

Returning to sumo, I think that discussions on whether eastern europeans in sumo are rude or not should limit themselves to those specific rikishi. It's useless to make general statements, as it is INDIVIDUALS who are under our scrutiny, and we cannot judge the culture of a country by one or two people, especially when talking about brothers, with similar upbringings.

Let's keep criticizing / praising / loving / hating Roho and company, but maybe it's time to get back to individuals, not countries and cultures.

[Asashosakari]

Are you really basing your entire perception of the French on what your professor once told you ? I myself drop by France quite frequently, and I am appalled to read your post. I expect that you will get some strong reactions from the French people reading this forum, but in the meantime, I advise you to edit your post.

In fact, I'm quite confused by the_mind labelling the French as stereotypically rude on the same day he accuses Kintamayama of making a racist statement for calling him "a typical gaijin". Somebody needs to sort out their thinking about race and culture issues, I would say.

Edited July 20, 2005 by Asashosakari

[Manekineko]

Shiroikuma's.  Shiroikuma-san - would be interesting to know where you stand on much of this critisicm over some of your 'deshi'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't notice any complaints on Takanoyama's character, and he is probably the only gaijin currently in Ozumo that could be called Shiroikuma's "deshi". AFAIK, Shiroikuma had nothing to do with bringing the Ossetains to Ozumo. Sure it would be interesting to hear his opinion since he presumably knows them better than we do, but that's all.

And, yes, the_mind, you form pretty strong opinions with frightening spead and ease. (Applauding...) (and just to avoid misunderstanding - I'm not saying this as a mod, and neither did Kintamayama in your last discussion)

[Coo-cook]

Let's keep criticizing / praising / loving / hating Roho and company, but maybe it's time to get back to individuals, not countries and cultures.

Excellent point. (Applauding...)

Though I'm proud of Asashoryu, he can't represent whole Mongolia (And,not all Mongolians are car mirror haters, most of us are just curious about that shiny glass, I guess).

And Roho should represent the whole Eastern Europe (plus Shiroikuma) ?...no way. Muahahaha....Muahhaha...

(I should learn to write "cynical laughing" from Kinta-san)

Edited July 20, 2005 by Coo-cook

[Iwagakki]

(And,not  all Mongolians are car mirror haters, most of us are just curious about that shiny glass, I guess).

Best thing I've read on sumoforum in a long time

[_the_mind_]

(Nodding yes...)

Are you really basing your entire perception of the French on what your professor once told you ? I myself drop by France quite frequently, and I am appalled to read your post. I expect that you will get some strong reactions from the French people reading this forum, but in the meantime, I advise you to edit your post.

Generalizing on an entire culture is impossible, and there are rude and polite people in every country. In addition, things change very much depending on where you are, especially between bigger or smaller cities. Asking for directions in Tokyo, for example, will not be as easy as in the japanese countryside, and the same may be true of Paris and New York - although I have spent time in all three places and cannot say I was treated rudely in any of them, as a general rule.

Returning to sumo, I think that discussions on whether eastern europeans in sumo are rude or not should limit themselves to those specific rikishi. It's useless to make general statements, as it is INDIVIDUALS who are under our scrutiny, and we cannot judge the culture of a country by one or two people, especially when talking about brothers, with similar upbringings.

Let's keep criticizing / praising / loving / hating Roho and company, but maybe it's time to get back to individuals, not countries and cultures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i completely expected someone to say this eventually. the fact of the matter is not everyone has the luxory of being able to travel to every country in the world and first handedly view everything with their own eyes. if you must see it with your own eyes to beleive it then you will live a very sheltered exsistence. unless you (in general) happen to be part of a lucky few who are able to travel the world and see everything first hand. if you cannot go by the word of someone who knows better then you by experience, of which i take my professors word as he is from france, then you will question everything regaurdless of that person's expertice. i do not presume to tell a frenchmen he is wrong when he tells me that the people in his country are generally rude, as i have never been there to dispute such a thing. while i am more of a learn it for myself type of person, some things that is just not possible with. why re-invent the wheel for everything you havent seen or done on your own? especially when it isnt practical to challened the said oppinion (which would be the case for me to tell him he is wrong). i havent put my hand inside a fire yet i know its hot.

your last statement is fair enough, however when i specificlly named Roho is when i was jumped all over by a person who shall remain nameless in another thread. so apparently if you name specific people that doesnt work either. lest you be called a typical gaijin for having an oppinion that isnt agreed with. which brings me to Asashosakari's comments. i was called out of my name for having an oppinion by your friend, nothing more and nothing less. to personally attack someone over them asking questions like "what would it take for a rikishi to get suspended" and be called out of your name is rediculous. do not lump this thread with the other as it IS different. my question had little to do with specificly roho but more of what would happen if ANY rikishi did it. and your friend took it apon himself to call me a racial epithet. some people see gaijin as a word of disrespect, being called it, i do too. i have not called anyone out of their name in this thread have i? im meirly relaying an oppinion bestowed unto me by someone who would know more then i do about a different culture. however if you must learn everything on your own then what is the point of formal education? ...i am hardly contradicting myself as you are trying to infer. there is a difference in respecting ones oppinion and being respectful about it and resorting to childish name calling when you dont agree. Petr disagreed with me in a civilized way and i answered him in a civilized way. however if you attack me insted of trying to discuss it, then dont expect a polite answer. i am as polite to everyone as they are to me. prove me wrong on this and ill apologize. i am man enough to admit if im out of line. aparently certain people are allowed to have standing oppinions and others arent

Edited July 20, 2005 by _the_mind_

[_the_mind_]

And, yes, the_mind, you form pretty strong opinions with frightening spead and ease. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no offense taken

[Kintamayama]

i was called out of my name for having an oppinion by your friend, nothing more and nothing less. to personally attack someone over them asking questions like "what would it take for a rikishi to get suspended" and be called out of your name is rediculous. do not lump this thread with the other as it IS different. my question had little to do with specificly roho but more of what would happen if ANY rikishi did it. and your friend took it apon himself to call me a racial epithet. some people see gaijin as a word of disrespect, being called it, i do too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gaijin means foreigner in Japanese, it has nothing to do with disrespect. you just don't know these things, I guess.You keep harping and harping on this as if everyone else here is a total idiot. A racial epiphet my ass. I have apologised twice to you if I offended you, but you keep on. I will not allow you to defame my character. I'll be all over you from now on, moderator or not, you little person. Racist? Your derogatory remarks about the French are racist, that's for sure. So now you make some lame excuse about not being able to travel the world. There is another way, you know, to deal with stuff you know nothing of first hand. Just shut up. It will make you look better and you won't have to go on your third grade spelling-error riddled rants.

Edited July 20, 2005 by Kintamayama

[Ryukaze]

Wow well uh sidestepping all that I'll just say that I think the kyokai should start slapping on some fines for those who repeatedly dont comply with what should be considered only proper etiquette, arrogance has no place in "sumo-do", (I've noticed Roho and kakizoe seem quite angry at their opponents after a loss instead of showing the proper respect afterwards). Even when i did compete no matter how viscious or badly i creamed a guy (or wanted to) I would always then immediately extened a helping hand to assist, your ego stays outside the dohyo, just one of the many things that makes sumo the sport it is and more. -

Edited July 20, 2005 by Ryukaze

[Kintamayama]

First I'd like to say, I don't believe the Eastern Europeans currently in Oozumou are rude.

Often, Kokkai's, Rohou's, and lately also Hakurozan's Attitudes - approach to Shoubu, have been mentioned here as blatant examples of being rude, i.e. disrespecting the opponent. etc..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good to see that my theory is backed up by Shiroikuma, who is somewhat close to what goes on..

[nabudetoulouse]

no comment,

la france vous salut bien !!!!

[Mark Buckton]

Generalizing on an entire culture is impossible

not impossible at all. watch.

the english? a bunch of heathen, scheming, repressed, uptight, evil, low-down, no good, agressive, smelly dogs

the irish? peace-loving, artistic, kind, warm generous people who bring light joy and happiness wherever they go while enjoying the odd social drink.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(Applauding...) (Clapping wildly...) (I was stupid...) (I was stupid...)

[Sasanishiki]

I particularly hold these three Rikishi in esteem, because they are tough men, who've had incredibly tough lifes, and that has hardened them.

...

And it's where the Fighting Spirit comes from. And it's the same with basically most Eastern European Rikishi, Kotooushuu was the same in Amateur Sumou as I remember him from tournaments where we met. So I'm positive it isn't rudeness, it's just the Fighting Spirit.

...

And I think that it is recognized as Fighting Spirit in Oozumou. I've never heard anything negative about their attitude from any Oyakata, or other Rikishi, in Japan.

But other than that, I don't think anybody sees it as impolite. In fact the impression I get is that they are held in respect for having this Fighting Spirit and acting like Warriors, and not sportsmen.

Being tough and uncompromising is one thing, and probably confined to before and during the bout. Not following the required etiquette of bowing and acknowledging the other competitor after the bout is just rude. Be tough and focussed, yes, but do what is required (and not just for the yokozuna) to show respect to the other rikishi.

[Coo-cook]

he irish? peace-loving, artistic, kind, warm generous people who bring light joy and happiness wherever they go while enjoying the odd social drink.

Wow, what a similarity. The peace is only desire we have after we drink our social drink-arkhi. (Shaking head...)

Edited July 22, 2005 by Coo-cook

[Mark Buckton]

I particularly hold these three Rikishi in esteem, because they are tough men, who've had incredibly tough lifes, and that has hardened them.

...

And it's where the Fighting Spirit comes from. And it's the same with basically most Eastern European Rikishi, Kotooushuu was the same in Amateur Sumou as I remember him from tournaments where we met. So I'm positive it isn't rudeness, it's just the Fighting Spirit.

...

And I think that it is recognized as Fighting Spirit in Oozumou. I've never heard anything negative about their attitude from any Oyakata, or other Rikishi, in Japan.

But other than that, I don't think anybody sees it as impolite. In fact the impression I get is that they are held in respect for having this Fighting Spirit and acting like Warriors, and not sportsmen.

Being tough and uncompromising is one thing, and probably confined to before and during the bout. Not following the required etiquette of bowing and acknowledging the other competitor after the bout is just rude. Be tough and focussed, yes, but do what is required (and not just for the yokozuna) to show respect to the other rikishi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

indeed - actually, I find it funny that the recent conversations on SF indicate that the eastern European amateurs care so much about the matta that are ignored (notwithstanding the fact that I asked the head of the Czech Sumo Assoc if he had addressed the situation officially and he chose not to answer) yet don't refer to the obvious broken rules by their own rikishi in their aiming for the throat so many times - nodowa being banned and all. (Being unsure...)

PS -S,kuma - why would the ooyakata address their opinions on such a sensitive subject - critical of the deshi of one of their counterparts to an outsider? :-)

Edited July 22, 2005 by Adachinoryu

[Sasanishiki]

ShiroiKuma is having temporary technical problems in replying. He has made the moderators aware of this and I'm sure he'll be posting very soon.

[Kintamayama]

Well, not exactly European, but is this according to protocol? Dancing in the hanamichi after a win??

Heck, who cares! 5 straight, 13 in all and counting!! (Bleh!)

Edited July 24, 2005 by Kintamayama

[Mark Buckton]

From an absolute perspective I think you're right.

But I don't think that say Rohou has a substantial problem of this sort where he would not acknowledge his Aite. What has been pointed out here is that some of his Rei after a loss are much less deep than after a win. Which might be true, but I think that's a minute detail.

And if it were indeed so that he would not acknowledge the opponent, he would be disciplined by the Kyoukai. But such an issue has never been raised by the Kyoukai and no has criticized him for that on these grounds, so it's probably a minute problem only pointed out by some fans here, but not more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

do you honestly think we / you are in on all the 'advisory' meetings and the like that go on in the NSK? (espec with Taiho in his stable)

If you think we / you are privvy to everything - you are kidding yourself. (I am not worthy...)

Do you think Tokitsuumi would not get a bollocking for how he attempted to win the Juryo yusho yesterday - or Dejima didn't get a thrashing for his henka in the Akebono playoff back in 99?

As I am sure all at your newspaper is not public - why would the inner workings of the NSK be so?

Weak defence of Roho that one.