Taka/Waka feud

[_the_mind_]

i tried searching this on the sight but the number of threads with Taka and Waka in them are too many.....so can someone please tell me what exactly is their current or previous dislike for eachother caused by? what started it? what has purpetuated it? ......i dont know anything about why they dont get along anymore, i just know that they dont. not sure for how long this has been going on or the reasons.

[AsaMoe]

That also puzzles me.

According to my "sources" AvdG's book Sumo- Kampf der Giganten from 99 there was no dislike in these times.

And when i started to watch sumo myself, they have already disappeared.

[Jonosuke]

Takanohana/Takahanada was an idealist and perfectionist totally consumed by sumo when he was an active rikishi. He was devoted and dedicated to sumo 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and 365 days a year. For him anything less was a travesty.

Immediately after joining his father's heya, he transformed his life as a carefree 15 year old student to almost obsessive full time recruit, living a life far harsher than any other new recruits. His day began 3 AM and he never stopped working out before 11 AM, hardly taking any break. With his older brother, Akinoshima and Takatoriki, they went through well over 200 training sessions a day almost every single day. He never took it easy even after promoted to Ozeki and then to Yokozuna (most Ozekis and Yokozunas cut down their training time, feeling they have already built the base to work with, and as well they have fewer superior opponents to train with so it will become more of self-training).

Takanohana's mental discipline never changed but his psychological makeup did after he went through several traumatic personal events. The first came in a failed engagement. He befriended a well-known actress Rie Miyazawa and they got along well. Even with his strict training regimen and her busy showbiz schedule, they often went out together and were beginning to make plans for their marriage. But they faced severe outside interferences - his shisho was vehemently against the marriage as she was viewed as not a good "Okamisan" candidate.

Rie was brought up by a typical stage mother who was totally devoted to make her daughter an internationally acclaimed movie star. She wanted Rie to continue her career and possibly receive some renumeration as she would lose her revenue source which she worked so hard to provide for her the rest of her life. Perhaps this marriage was doomed to a failure so it may have been best that it ended before it even got started however this whole event and media circus surrounding it left a deep scar in Takanohana.

Another traumatic event was his father/shisho's tax evasion scandal and subsequent guilty verdict. Takanohana idolized his father, his father was his hero. He admired him and respected him. To him his father was not only a ferocious fighter but also a saint incapable of doing wrong. Then he discovered through court proceedings that his father indeed did not report his income and revenues he received from his supporters so he could pay for a Toshiyori Myoseki from his older brother, Wakanohana I. Takanohana was so disillusioned that his father never truly admited his guilt and come clean for him and felt he has been lied about from the beginning. He still had faith in his father as a good shisho but he was no longer his hero nor considered him to be a saint.

These two events shaped what Takanohana to become later in his career. He became more distrustful of people's motives and he certainly did not trust media. He was no longer able to trust anyone as he felt he was betrayed by someone he trusted most, his father. A yokozuna by essence is a lonely figure but once he became yokozuna and his brother did shortly after, he also lost the best person he could confide in as they both became fierce competitors on their own. He started looking at his brother more objectively and felt he lacked the total dedication required for the position.

Compared to his brother, Wakanohana III had various interests. Sumo was not a single minded obsession for him. He loved car races, professional wrestling and American football. To him sumo was more of occupation than a lifetime devotion, consuming every breath of his life. Wakanohana III was still training hard, certainly did far more than average high Makuuchi ranking rikishis but his training levels went down significantly in quality and quantity compared to his pre-Makuuchi days once he became Yokozuna. Takanohana expressed a reservation about Wakanohana's worth as a yokozuna, hoping to make him more motivated to train harder like before. "Wakanohana lacks fundamental training discipline required for a Yokozuna. If he maintains his present training regimen, I don't see how he can keep his position with honor," Takanohana said at the time. Takanohana said it more in affection for his brother than anything else but this has been blown up in all proportion by media. There may have been another minor schism before but this one was the beginning.

In addition, Takanohana hired his own personal trainer and masseur foregoing the heya's staff trainer and without their authorization. This man was considered by many to be of a rather dubious character and known for preaching cultish ideas. He told Takanohana that he had to let go of his family relationships to achieve greater goals and accomplishments. He told Takanohana not to listen or trust anyone at the heya or from Ozumo world. At the time media widely reported that Takanohana has been brainwashed and it was an idea shared by many who knew him well including his parents and brother. Takanohana was even asked to stop seeing this man and was forced to see him less often but he never stopped talking to him completely.

After Wakanohana left Ozumo and leaving the Hanada legacy to Takanohana alone, the relationship appeared to have thawed out somewhat but there were lingering doubts as Takanohana went more and more onto his own, especially during long months of rehabilitation trying to come back from his major knee injury which ultimately cost his active career.

While Wakanohana III kept close contact with the Hanada family clan, Takanohana eliminated the relations from his life by single-mindedly devoting himself to Heya management and Kyokai work. For him sumo should have his total commitment, he is consumed with it and is still fanatically devoted to it. Nothing else really matters in his life outside of sumo with an exception of his own family's well being.

[Fukurou]

Takanohana/Takahanada was an idealist and perfectionist totally consumed by sumo when he was an active rikishi. He was devoted and dedicated to sumo 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and 365 days a year. For him anything less was a travesty.

...

The first came in a failed engagement. He befriended a well-known actress Rie Miyazawa and they got along well. Even with his strict training regimen and her busy showbiz schedule, they often went out together and were beginning to make plans for their marriage. But they faced severe outside interferences - his shisho was vehemently against the marriage as she was viewed as not a good "Okamisan" candidate.

Rie was brought up by a typical stage mother who was totally devoted to make her daughter an internationally acclaimed movie star. She wanted Rie to continue her career and possibly receive some renumeration as she would lose her revenue source which she worked so hard to provide for her the rest of her life. Perhaps this marriage was doomed to a failure so it may have been best that it ended before it even got started however this whole event and media circus surrounding it left a deep scar in Takanohana.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And this guy wanted to get married to Rie Miyazawa? B-) Got a high opinion of himself, doesn't he? I wonder what he thought he had to offer to think she'd seriously consider throwing her career away for him.

But I am confused - were they ever really engaged? The post says they were, then says they were good friends, then says things ended before they got started. I'm also confused as Jonosuke's post appears to blame the break-up on her mother and the media, even though Takanohana's own shisho was against any relationship too. Does anyone actually know what caused the break-up, or if there ever was anything to break-up in the first place?

[Zentoryu]

And this guy wanted to get married to Rie Miyazawa?  B-) Got a high opinion of himself, doesn't he? I wonder what he thought he had to offer to think she'd seriously consider throwing her career away for him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess being (at the time) one of the most popular professional athletes in Japan just wasn't good enough for her? (Eh?) :-)

She apparently didn't think so as they were engaged to be married. This isn't a rumored relationship, it did take place, it did have a highly publicized breakup. There was a huge media frenzy over it due to the popularity of both Taka and Rie.

From the Japanese Idols website's bio on Rie (http://www.mm52.com/japaneseidols.com):

Things seemed to have gotten even better by October of that year when rising sumo star Takanohana proposed marriage. Rie accepted and the couple announced their engagement to a frenzied media (NHK reportedly offered one billion yen for the rights to screen the wedding).

By the turn of 1993 things had started to sour due to a widening schism between the families, seemingly over whether Rie would continue to work or give up her career to be a "sumo wife." It was quite clear what Rie's mother wanted and soon the engagement was called off.

Following the split, Rie seemed to be on a downward spiral to self-destruction. In September of 1994 she cut her wrists with a broken glass in what was described as an "accident." The tabloids focused on Rie's drinking session, fights with her mother and her escape to a nearby hotel as signs of a failed suicide attempt.

There was also the objections of Futagoyama Oyakata to contend with as well.

Taka's current wife was said to have commented as recently as a couple of years ago that she felt Taka was still in love with Rie. So it seems they were both deeply scared by the whole incident.

Taka and Rie announcing their engagement:

Edited June 2, 2005 by Zentoryu

[Onnagumo]

Another pic.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Onnagumo

[hoshidango]

I just want to thank Jonosuke on the extensive coverage on Taka-Waka relationships. This was the time I largely diverted my interests off sumo but by reading this discription I feel very clear about some of questions I had.

[Phelix]

Hmmm, poor Taka. Sort of.

[Sasanishiki]

I read that and sort of equated his position with that of royal family members in some countries. They inherit attention because of their family or position, and effectively by taking an exhalted position no longer have a private life. Now, Taka decided to join sumo and earned his position, but in some ways could he have done anything else, given who his father was? I guess many of the other events have really just flowed on from this...

[brewdude]

There is an article in the Sat Japan Times about the Waka/Taka feud. It might be in their online edition. I am not sure. If you can't find it let me know and I can transcribe it. It was a pretty good article about a rekindling of the feud over the Funeral arrangements

[Araiguma_Rascal]

In addition, Takanohana hired his own personal trainer and masseur foregoing the heya's staff trainer and without their authorization. This man was considered by many to be of a rather dubious character and known for preaching cultish ideas. He told Takanohana that he had to let go of his family relationships to achieve greater goals and accomplishments. He told Takanohana not to listen or trust anyone at the heya or from Ozumo world.  At the time media widely reported that Takanohana has been brainwashed and it was an idea shared by many who knew him well including his parents and brother. Takanohana was even asked to stop seeing this man and was forced to see him less often but he never stopped talking to him completely.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh my, that's bad juju. It seems that Takanohana was quite naive, as his shock with his father's legal troubles also seems to indicate. His single-mindedness certainly helped him focus completely on Sumo and reach the highest pinnacle, but it also has a downside. I worry sometimes when I hear that, for example, a fortune teller is trying to get close to Asashoryu, or that Kaio is seeing chiropractors and acupuncturists for his injuries. I wish the Kyokai would warn the young rikishis about these nefarious people in advance.

[Asashosakari]

I worry sometimes when I hear that, for example, a fortune teller is trying to get close to Asashoryu, or that Kaio is seeing chiropractors and acupuncturists for his injuries. I wish the Kyokai would warn the young rikishis about these nefarious people in advance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're completely wrong to lump chiropractic and acupuncture in with something like fortune telling.

[Lucius Flavonius]

I really hate these kinds of quarrels. Even at this sorrowful event, the brothers are insolent enough to argue with each other.

Why don't they just leave it all behind and be a family again?

[Araiguma_Rascal]

Here is the article that brewdude was referring to. Japan Times Story

Regarding "nefarious," I mean that more in regards to fortune-tellers and psychics and their ilk. I realize that many chiropractors and acupuncturist actually believe that what they do has some medical benefit. However, to make a long story short, there is little scientific evidence to support either, and plenty that seems to refute them. Yes, people apparantly can be "cured," but they can also be apparantly "cured" by placebos, "faith healing" and a number of other dubious methods. For more information on acupuncture and chiropractic:

Quackwatch article on acupuncture

Chirobase: information resource on chiropractic

[Fukurou]

Here is the article that brewdude was referring to. Japan Times Story

Regarding "nefarious," I mean that more in regards to fortune-tellers and psychics and their ilk. I realize that many chiropractors and acupuncturist actually believe that what they do has some medical benefit. However, to make a long story short, there is little scientific evidence to support either, and plenty that seems to refute them. Yes, people apparantly can be "cured," but they can also be apparantly "cured" by placebos, "faith healing" and a number of other dubious methods. For more information on acupuncture and chiropractic:

Quackwatch article on acupuncture

Chirobase: information resource on chiropractic

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quote your references all you want, but chiropractic treatment is NOT something people "believe" but has no real benefit. Have you ever tried chiropractic treatment, or are you going from what people have told you? My dad won't go near it either, but both my brother and I have had nothing but good experiences with our limited treatment.

In my case, my doctor (MD) referred me to a chiropractor (D.O. = Doctor of Osteopathy is his degree) for back pain I'd been having. The DO not only straightened out my problem, the MD confirmed through examination and x-rays that the misalignments were "fixed" (my word), and I confirmed that my pain was gone (and has been for well over a year now). After the course of my chiropractic treatment was complete (about 1/week for 3 months), I was given a list of exercises and stretches to perform at home on my own to keep my original problem from recurring. Haven't had to see him again. Had the MD not referred me to the DO, surgury or "live with it" with drugs were the only other options.

btw - Chiropractic treatment is also fully covered by my medical insurance provider (one of the major providers in the US). Do you really think they'd cover chiropractic if there wasn't anything to it?

[Otokonoyama]

All this feuding seems to be going on over here - in the newspapers, on televison. Comments by wives of the Hanada bros. Enough to make one long for better days...

[Fukurou]

And this guy wanted to get married to Rie Miyazawa?

[Jonosuke]

Why does him being a popular athlete have anything to do with it? She had her own career, and was extremely popular in it too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because it was an affair of heart. All reports indicated she truly loved him and she was ready to throw away her career which was largely created for her by her mother that time. At the time she was not a major star though she was well known and appeared on TV commercials and dramas but not as established as she is now.

Shortly after the breakup, I've seen several photos of her appearing in Japanese tabloids that showed her just skin and bones as she went through a severe dietary problem (I believe she just refused to eat and was taken to a hospital to recover from it). Some reports said that she was close to death but even then Takanohana never contacted her (many women I know considered him a failure as a man then).

Obviously noone except the two really know the true story but she was crushed by Takanohana not standing up to his parents while she did to her mother, especially considering his own parents had such a passionate love affair and they got married in spite of everyone around them was against their marriage.

[Zentoryu]

Why does him being a popular athlete have anything to do with it? She had her own career, and was extremely popular in it too. Why should she give up her career for him? Couldn't he give up his career for her?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Look, in your first post you insinuated that he wasn't good enough for her, ("And this guy wanted to get married to Rie Miyazawa? Got a high opinion of himself, doesn't he?") that's what I responded to. Clearly I misunderstood the path you were going on with this.

As for the career thing... She was in love and love can make a person do things that other people might consider to be a mistake.

Look at Britney Spears, she's essentially thrown away her career for a backup dancer who has two kids from another relationship. Why? Because she's in love.

Rie was so in love with Taka that she apparently considered commiting suicide after he broke off the relationship. So its obvious that, in her case, her love for Taka was greater than her love for her career.

When love comes into play, things like careers take a backseat.

Edited June 6, 2005 by Zentoryu

[Kintamayama]

Takanohana said today that when he was at the hospital with his brother, his brother said unto him:" Takanohana beya is just a placque, huh.." "I was saddened by this," understated Takanohana. When asked about this, Masaru declined to comment. Later, Takanohana asked not to make a big fuss over this.

[Jonosuke]

Takanohana said today that when he was at the hospital with his brother, his brother said unto him:" Takanohana beya is just a placque, huh.." "I was saddened by this," understated Takanohana.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In a way it's true. It is the heya his father built - all Takanohana did was to get the new heya name plate. He has been managing the heya for sometime now and I don't see too many recruits knocking their doors but it's still too early. He needs to bring along more promising rikishis as they no longer have any sekitoris there.

[_the_mind_]

In a way it's true. It is the heya his father built - all Takanohana did was to get the new heya name plate.  He has been managing the heya for sometime now and I don't see too many recruits knocking their doors but it's still too early.  He needs to bring along more promising rikishis as they no longer have any sekitoris there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

for someone who is said to be so dedicated to Sumo i find it quite interesting that they have no sekitori. i mean what does he do if he isnt out recruiting? i realize they supervise keiko and such, but it just seems strange that he has no promosing rikishi at all.....although futagoyama beya has been without people at the top for quite some time (except takanonami)

[Asashosakari]

for someone who is said to be so dedicated to Sumo i find it quite interesting that they have no sekitori. i mean what does he do if he isnt out recruiting?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well you can't quite recruit sekitori, so even if he happens upon a promising newcomer, unless it's a college star you're looking at some 5 years of development time before the guy would make Juryo. Of course, he hasn't done much recruitment at all...

At any rate, the dearth of talent was already evident before Takanohana took over the stable. If I'm not mistaken, the stable hasn't had a Makuuchi debut since 1992, and in the meantime the biggest successes were occasional Juryo Gokenzan and a few guys who topped out in high Makushita. Everyone's retired now or very close to retiring, and the heya looks more like a recent start-up than a former powerhouse.

All in all, it always seemed like the stable was too preoccupied with its 1990s top stars and didn't have much time to prepare for the future. Takanohana happened to take over right when even the last remnants of old prestige went up in flames.

[_the_mind_]

but what does he do if he isnt out recruiting? i mean i dont see why someone like Takanohana couldnt walk into someone's home and convince them to be part of his heya. is there a limit to the number of people you can have at one time? i would think that given his name recognition alone alot of kids would want to follow him. although i guess that isnt really the case in any heya. although if what i said were true then i suppose Kokonoe Beya would attract alot also, and doesnt seem to.

[Zuikakuyama]

Well, it just so happens that the 4 top yusho winning yokozunas all have not had an exceptional record of recruitment, with the exception of Chiyonofuji / Kokonoe, which is not exactly in the top ranks i

Taiho beya did badly, Kokonoe is mediocre, Kitanoumi is also quite bad, and Takanohana is not heading in a postive diretion either.

On the other hand, it is the weakest yokozunas that are doing well, in terms of recruitment. The examples being Sadogatake (Kotozakura), Musashigawa (Mienoumi) and Naruto (Takanosato).

So I think reputation as a yokozuna carries little weight.