Asa's great

[Otokonoyama]

Man About Sports/ Asashoryu great but Taiho greatest champion of all

05/30/2005

By DAVE WIGGINS, Contributing Writer

Yeah, yeah, Asashoryu is a great yokozuna. He achieved that status when he notched double digits in yusho two basho ago.

And yes, Asa is now tied with Musashimaru for most tournament titles by a foreigner-12-after registering an unblemished May log.

But as good as he is, Asashoryu is still far from being the greatest yokozuna. For MAS's money that would have to be the legendary Taiho.

I know Chiyonofuji-philes may disagree but MAS is a bottom line kind of guy. And Taiho's bottom line is 32 yusho won-one more than Chiyo.

So you see how far Asa still has to go.

MAS feels it's only fitting to give Taiho his mad props-as the hippity-hop set likes to say-as the greatest turns 65 and bids adieu to formal association with sumo. He's been an oyakata, or stablemaster, since his retirement as an active rikishi in 1971.

But it wasn't just his bottom line that makes Taiho the greatest in MAS's mind. It was also how he propelled Japan's national sport to an unprecedented level of popularity when he reigned supreme during the 1960s.

All the rest!

[Phelix]

He's got time to get there too. He will get there. Right now he's like Bubka in some aspects.

[Kishinoyama]

Was sumo that popular in the 1960's when Taiho was dominating? Seriously? I was born in 1967 so is that statement true? (Bye, bye...) (Showing respect...)

[sekihiryu]

Is Dave Wiggins an idiot? what a stupid article, thanks for pointing out the obvious.Of course you cant say Asashoryu is the greatest simply for the fact he hasnt finished his career yet, its only just getting warm.

Its like saying for example LeBron James is the greatest Basketball player, you cant say that, because he hasnt fully proven himself over the duration of a full career like Michael Jordan did. When his career has wrapped up and the dust has settled, then you can compare greatness.

When Asashouyu completes his Dohyo life then and ONLY then can there be a debate on who is the greatest.

Who got Wiggins' knickers in twist by spouting off 'ryu is the G.O.A.T (Greatest of all time).??

Anyway for whats it worth Asashoryu is in the lead at the 14 Yokozuna Basho mark.

If you compare the records of the Taiho, Chiyonofuji and Asashoryu after 14

Basho as a Yokozuna

Asashoryu 10 yusho - 4 zensho - 28 losses (had that 9-6 and the Nagoya 03 disaster)

Taiho 9 yusho - 2 zensho - 24 losses

Chiyonofuji - 6 yusho - 1 zensho - 26 losses - (not including a kosho and a near full kyujo)

Well it looks like Asashouryu is well on pace if he wants to make any debate on greatness, it remains to be whether he can maintain that pace and crack the mythical 30 basho mark, heck its a long way to 20 Basho.

[_the_mind_]

i agree that the initial article is stupid, i cant imagine anyone calling Asa the G.O.A.T...he is only the greatest right now of active rikishi

[hoshidango]

This reminds me of the comparison between Tiger Woods and Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklous(not sure about the spelling). Time will tell.

[slt]

Is Dave Wiggins an idiot? what a stupid article, thanks for pointing out the obvious.Of course you cant say Asashoryu is the greatest simply for the fact he hasnt finished his career yet, its only just getting warm.

Its like saying for example LeBron James is the greatest Basketball player, you cant say that, because he hasnt fully proven himself over the duration of a full career like Michael Jordan did. When his career has wrapped up and the dust has settled, then you can compare greatness.

When Asashouyu completes his Dohyo life then and ONLY then can there be a debate on who is the greatest.

Who got Wiggins' knickers in twist by spouting off 'ryu is the G.O.A.T (Greatest of all time).??

Anyway for whats it worth Asashoryu is in the lead at the 14 Yokozuna Basho mark.

If you compare the records of the Taiho, Chiyonofuji and Asashoryu after 14

Basho as a Yokozuna

Asashoryu  10 yusho - 4 zensho - 28 losses (had that 9-6 and the Nagoya 03 disaster)

Taiho 9 yusho - 2 zensho - 24 losses

Chiyonofuji - 6 yusho - 1 zensho - 26 losses -  (not including a kosho and a near full kyujo)

Well it looks like Asashouryu is well on pace if he wants to make any debate on greatness, it remains to be whether he can maintain that pace and crack the mythical 30 basho mark, heck its a long way to 20 Basho.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I fully agree, but, just to cool things down a bit, I think it's probably fair to say that we are all looking at the article by Wiggins from an "Asashoryu perspective", because of the name of the thread.

I cannot access the link, so I'm not sure how the rest of the article pans out, but my sense is that the article was meant not as a critique of Asashoryu, but more as a general praise for Taiho, as he reaches his retirement and wraps up his sumo career.

That aside, the numbers that Asashoryu is putting up there are quite exciting, and I definitely hope to continue seeing his fantastic sumo reach new record highs.

Edited June 1, 2005 by slt

[sekihiryu]

Try this link

[Coo-cook]

Asa should be compared with Takanohana, first (with 4 zensho).

[AsaMoe]

It is really difficult to compare sportsman from different times, when there is no measurable performance available.

30+ yushos require a really exceptional Yokuzuna, no other Yokuzuna and a lot of health.

When there is noone else, who could match Asashoryu's skills for long, he will win 5 bashos a year and reach 32 in 2010. Then he is still 29 and can win a couple more.

But i think, that this was also thought of Takanohana ?

We will see.

[Yagura]

Well, I am not saying that Asa is the all-times-best. But when we try to compare sportmen from different ages, we also must take into account that in modern times is quite more difficult to be "the very best" than in older times.

I mean, in any sport, some forty years ago, if somebody was really good at it, he/she could simple pass over the rest. But nowadays, because of better training techniques, better health system... all the differences are narrowing. So I think it is quite more difficult to be overwhelming the best one.

Just take cycling, e.g, I am pretty sure it was quite more difficult for Indurain to win five tours in the 90s than for Mercks in the 60s.

Regards

[AsaMoe]

Well, I am not saying that Asa is the all-times-best. But when we try to compare sportmen from different ages, we also must take into account that in modern times is quite more difficult to be "the very best" than in older times.

Though i think your explanation is reasonable, i believe, that the result is a bit of a myth. I think, there are too many examples, where people in these days surpassed all opponents by far (Michael Schuhmacher, Michael Jordan, Asashoryu, Indurain and even Garik Karsparov).

[_the_mind_]

good job throwing in Karsparov!!! B-) beat that computers ass!

didnt i hear he was retireing?

[genghis]

I agree with the idea that nowadays it is very difficult to be so overwhelming in any sport. However overwhelming is Asashoryu, I doubt that he can make 30+ youshos. We are talking about at least 3 years of total dominance, which is quite impossible.

But he will be really remembered, of course, if he can make it. Lets root for him that he can make it. The most recent case of such a dominance was probably the Alexander Karelin. May be, nothing is impossible?

[Shomishuu]

Was sumo that popular in the 1960's when Taiho was dominating? Seriously? I was born in 1967 so is that statement true?  B-)  :-)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At the risk of being corrected by authentic historians, I'll give you my general impressions of this time, based on some admittedly fuzzy memories. First, the answer to the question is: Yes, it was immensely popular and it was mostly about Taiho. I arrived in Japan in 1963 as a young country boy from the States, knowing nothing about Japan. Taiho was one of my first impressions because the Hatsu Basho was underway when I arrived. Just from memory I would say that every American in the country knew who Taiho was. That's a startling statement but I believe it is accurate. I immediately began to watch Taiho just to see what the buzz was about. In addition to dominating, he possessed many other 'living legend' virtues: a rocket ride to the top, boyish good-looks and charm to die for, a serene form of dignity with a regal bearing. The name itself was easy to say and remember, and had a compelling ring to it. Sumo hadn't been on TV for too many years and competing programming was rudimentary so it was easy for both Japanese and foreigners to stay with sumo. Thinking back about it now, it seems as if the TV coverage of Taiho and sumo during the early 1960s was an invigorating tonic, and aided the Japanese in seeing themselves as something other than a defeated nation trying to find it's way. I do remember reading that later in the decade (after I had left Japan) that sumo fans were somewhat weary of Taiho winning almost all of the time, but that had its own respite period due to his 45-bout rensho in 1967. In general, my recollection is that the 1960s were a very good time for sumo, primarily because of what one rikishi gave to it.

[AsaMoe]

But he will be really remembered, of course, if he can make it. Lets root for him that he can make it. The most recent case of such a dominance was probably the Alexander Karelin. May be, nothing is impossible?

Yes, my list could have been extended to Alexander Karelin (thanks to google, i know who he is.

good job throwing in Karsparov!!!  beat that computers ass!

didnt i hear he was retireing?

Yes, he has retired. The last thing i heard, was that he nearly escaped being arested before court of that Yukos case.

None the less, he really dominated the rest of the world.

I dont think, that Asashoryu make the 30, but it is still possible.

And i dont think, that Sumo needs a Yokozuna, who wins 30 bashos.

[_the_mind_]

And i dont think, that Sumo needs a Yokozuna, who wins 30 bashos.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

why not? whats wrong with having a 30 Yusho Yokozuna in today's Sumo? given the respect Asa is getting from the former greats like Tahio and Kitanoumi, why would this not help Sumo? they need something to draw fans. and while im sure most of japan would like to see a japanese yokozuna, i dont see that happening any time soon unless someone surprises us all. that said, doesnt Japanese culture respect a winner and one like Asa who puts in so much hard work and dedication that must be necessary to dominate the way he does? it was my understanding Japanese culture/society held hard work and dedication in high esteem (i apologize to all the japanese on here if i am steriotyping). eventhough he isnt japanese i dont see why the general public would not respect him and cheer for him more as he wins more. he is currently building a legend in his own name(barring any setbacks like injury or loss of desire), when a legend gets big enough, everyone wants to witness it for themselves while its still possible.

[bennyloh]

True the former greats have won more and dedicated more years to Sumo in/after their yokuzuna days but given time Asa can also achieve all these.

As a yokuzuna Asa is greatest because

a) he convincingly defeats the majority of his bigger size opponents through his

'thinking' sumo.

b)he easily lifts and twirls bigger opponent in mid-air then landing them on their backs.

c)Quietly and alone he corrrects 'sloppy' sumo by all the rest. He demonstrated

many times in the last basho how throws should be done. While throwing he presses (with the other arm) the opponents shoulder/back to make sure that they land correctly and safely. The opponent appreciated this and the crowds love these thunderous falls. This is good for Sumo

d)His opponent respect his good sumo and in return display their best sumo. Seldom seen him manhandle/being rough to others .

Edited June 4, 2005 by bennyloh

[AsaMoe]

QUOTE(AsaMoe @ Jun 2, 2005, 14:35)

And i dont think, that Sumo needs a Yokozuna, who wins 30 bashos.

why not?

I also think, that sumo needs a hero, but it does not need bashos, where the yusho is decided on day 12

As a yokuzuna Asa is greatest because

a) he convincingly defeats the majority of his bigger size opponents through his

'thinking' sumo.

Maybe on can help me with this one. Is there any statistics like size percentage of the Yokozuna to his opponents. I have the impression, that none of the other 10+ Yokozuna was smaller in weight than his opponents ?

[slt]

And i dont think, that Sumo needs a Yokozuna, who wins 30 bashos.

I also think, that sumo needs a hero, but it does not need bashos, where the yusho is decided on day 12

There may be things sumo does NOT need, but I think sumo today definitely needs Asashoryu. Imagine sitting through Hatsu, Haru and Natsu 2005 without him.

:-( (Nodding yes...)

[AsaMoe]

There may be things sumo does NOT need, but I think sumo today definitely needs Asashoryu. Imagine sitting through Hatsu, Haru and Natsu 2005 without him.

Unfortunately, you are right.

But dont you think, that another rikishi, who could challenge Asashoryu will be even better ?

[Ryukaze]

One thing worth noting however, while Chiyonofuji did fall one yusho short of tying Taiho's record he holds the record for most "career victories" which should definately say something. What exactly defines one as "

the greatest" is it yusho's alone?????

Edited June 4, 2005 by Ryukaze

[Sasanishiki]

Impressive if you consider that Chiyonofuji was nothing too special in his first stint in Makuuchi. He debuted in Makuuchi in Sept. 1975, dropped back down and only reappeared in Jan. 1978.

In 1978 he was ranked M12e, M8e, M5e, Kw, M4e, M10w

In 1979 he dropped to juryo for May, returning in July. He then crawled upwards slowly and was back as Komusubi in May 1980. He became sekiwake in Nov. 1980, Ozeki in March 1981, and after the July 1981 basho was promoted to Yokozuna. He retired in May 1991, having held the position of yokozuna for 10 years.

In comparison, Taiho debuted at M13w in January 1960. He was M4e in March, M6e in May, Kw in July, Sw1 in Sept., Se in Nov., Oe2 in January 1961 and by November 1961 was a yokozuna. He breezed through the Makuuchi ranks in comparison to Chiyonofuji! He retired in May 1971, also having held the position of yokozuna for almost 10 years.

[slt]

There may be things sumo does NOT need, but I think sumo today definitely needs Asashoryu. Imagine sitting through Hatsu, Haru and Natsu 2005 without him.

Unfortunately, you are right.

But dont you think, that another rikishi, who could challenge Asashoryu will be even better ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. I think Kaio in his good days could have given us a nice Natsu, but I don't know how much longer he'll be able to keep his sumo up, with these chronic injuries. And I suppose that even if he DID do a few good bashos in a row, and finally became a yokozuna, he wouldn't last much up there.

Let's hope someone can find some of the same magic powder Asashoryu has found, I think we all wish to see him challenged by some dark rival.

I would love to see something like Chiyotaikai's fight against Asashoryu in Haru of 2003... Although I have never much liked Chiyotaikai, that was the kind of solid aggression that we rarely see nowadays, against the Yokozuna.

http://www.banzuke.com/~movies/haru2003/da...hor_chiyotai.rm

Anyway, Asashoryu is still very young, and I'm sure we will see someone rise up to be a worthwile opponent, sooner or later.

[_the_mind_]

*sigh*@ everyone ignored my post

i still think a rikishi on track to break records is good for the popularity. he exemplifies great sumo. while everyone complains about one dimentional fighters, Asa is about the only guy who you dont know what he will do next.