Quotes from Day 5

[madorosumaru]

Kyokushuzan: (After a bout lasting nearly two minutes) I'm pooped. My bad for not doing tenacious keiko.

Ama: (Losing despite mono-ii) Goshdarnit. I really wanted a re-match.

Kotomitsuki: (Getting immdiate moro-zashi advantage over Hakuho) That surprised me too. I got a bit anxious because I didn't think I should lose after getting into [such a] perfect position.

Chiyotaikai: (Out-thrusted by Tamanoshima) He got me good with hazu from the right. The more I did my tsuppari, the more my body gave way.

Tochiazuma: (After taming the brutishly strong Kokkai) It's good that I've been able to hit properly at tachiai. The attack after that depends on the flow. The tachiai is all-important.

Tamakasuga: (On his first five-bout win streak in makuuchi since 1996) I just follow the flow and do my sumo with equanimity. Nine years ago, I was so happy I didn't know what the heck was going on.

Takamisakari: (Celebrating his 29th birthday with a close mono-ii victory over Ama) I hate it when I have to wait [for a shinpan decision] even after getting the nod from the gyoji.

More Robo: (Feeling his age) My body is starting to ache. It gets tense.

Even more Robo: (Loneliness of a long-distance rikishi) What am I going to do tonight for my birthday? We're in middle of a basho so I can't party with my tsukebito. I guess I'll just buy a cake and celebrate by myself. (Despite his immense polpularity, he's just a lonely boy.)

Roho (lest there be any confusion, R-O-H-O): (Stating the obvious) Geez, the yokozuna is strong.

More Roho: (Reflecting on his first meeting against Asashoryu) I tried to grab the mai-mitsu with my left, but we got into hidari-yotsu (Ryu's preference). He moves so fast and my uwate-nage had no effect.

Even more Robo: (Properly chastened) I need to do lots more keiko and try again next basho.

* * *

A bit of postscipt to the Ryu-Roho intrigue:

Plenty has been written about Roho's behavior at the Soken. We all know that his former shisho, Taiho Oyakata, took him aside and lectured him on respect and proper behavior. According to the Yomiuri, Roho was defensive and argued with his mentor, forcing the exasperated legend to mutter, "There is no use talking [sense] to him." Since then, Taiho has not spoken a word to his "last pupil."

Taiho is conflicted. Roho is his "final project" who bears his name. On the other hand, he also has plenty of affection for Asashoryu who has always regarded him as a role model.

The Mainichi reported that Taiho invited Ryu to dinner on the eve of the "grudge match." It is supposed that he was going to ask Ryu to "help develop" his disciple. Asashoryu politely declined the invitation citing the need to prepare for the match. However, he did tell the media that he might "have a couple" with Taiho tonight.

Edited May 12, 2005 by madorosumaru

[Taizeniki]

Roho (lest there be any confusion, R-O-H-O):  (Stating the obvious)  Geez, the yokozuna is strong.

More Roho: (Reflecting on his first meeting against Asashoryu)  I tried to grab the mai-mitsu with my left, but we got into hidari-yotsu (Ryu's preference). He moves so fast and my uwate-nage had no effect.

Even more Robo:  (Properly chastened)  I need to do lots more keiko and try again next basho.

* * *

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Madorosumaru-san caught in his own linguistic snare... ;-) (Exercising...)

Thanks again for these quotes, they are great!

[madorosumaru]

Roho (lest there be any confusion, R-O-H-O):

Edited May 12, 2005 by madorosumaru

[Bataa]

Takamisakari: (Celebrating his 29th birthday with a close mono-ii victory over Ama) I hate it when I have to wait [for a shinpan decision] even after getting the nod from the gyoji

eventhough it was obviously a rematch i guess its right to give him the win since it's his bday..who wants to lose on his bday ;-)

Edited May 12, 2005 by Bataa

[kotooshu_bulgaria]

Yes, I agree it definitely deserved a tori-naoshi and that Ama was disadvantaged. This proves that bad refereeing decisions can be made even with the help of a video replay. ;-)

[Coo-cook]

It was very difficult to tell from the replay who touched the ground first.

A rematch would've been a fair decision, I thought.

[Shomishuu]

Actually, with the benefit of super slow-mo replay (did it that way three times from two different angles), it was clear that Takamisakari's ankle and part of his calf touched down inside the dohyo while Ama was still airborne. Since there was no reversal OR tori-naoshi, I just assumed shinitai had been invoked. Of course, the shimpan don't have the time that I put into it, so.... ;-)

[Petr]

I think that they considered the fact that it was Takamisakari's attact.

(Ama's flying body was probably considered a shinitai already. Who actually touched the ground first would not be important then.)

[genghis]

I am probably bit too suspicious, but it could be interesting to see if this pattern is a real thing. Close matches with foreign rikishis tend to result in mono-iri.

[kotooshu_bulgaria]

I am a fan of conspiracy theories myself, still I would like to leave this discussion for the next such case and more proof acquired. (Whistling...)

Edited May 13, 2005 by kotooshu_bulgaria

[Asashosakari]

I am probably bit too suspicious, but it could be interesting to see if this pattern is a real thing. Close matches with foreign rikishis tend to result in mono-iri.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, that's obviously a pattern. Mostly because close matches with ANY participants tend to result in mono-ii.

[genghis]

Lets compare Ama-Sakari mono-iri with the Asa-Azuma case from last basho. Sakari wins eventhough he "almost" landed first. Say, he was attacking and Ama was obviously not in control, being airborne. Well, then Asa was also attacking and the Azuma has landed at the same time.

I also remember mono-iris for Kotooshu, Hakuho from last basho.

[Asashosakari]

I also remember mono-iris for Kotooshu, Hakuho from last basho.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hate to make this sound so brash, but considering that at least half of all sekitori will have a mono-ii at some point during any tournament, what's your point?

[genghis]

I am by no means intending to prove it with a scientific precission. Just posting my angle of view. Look at the two clips. What is your point? (Whistling...)

[Asashosakari]

I am by no means intending to prove it with a scientific precission. Just posting my angle of view. Look at the two clips. What is your point? (Whistling...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point is that you're obviously trying to assert a conspiracy based on a small number of (maybe) suspicious rulings that involve foreign rikishi while

a) ignoring any suspicious rulings made against non-foreigners, and

b) ignoring the much, much larger number of cases in which the judge's decisions were obviously correct, both involving foreigners and non-foreigners.

In short, you're looking for the needle in the haystack, and once you've found it, you're proceeding to claim the haystack doesn't exist and your needle is all there is. Classic baseless conspiracy-mongering. Feel free to continue to indulge in your "foreign rikishi are poor victims of the all-powerful Kyokai dohyo judges" fantasy, though. You're hardly the first one, and probably not the last, either.

[genghis]

Well, just talk against the facts, if you can. Don't avoid the reality. Talk about the clips. You are behaving like a judge, but certainly not the one who can judge others. And this place is, I think, not only for you. I understand that you disagree with the idea. I also want to be proven wrong, of course. But, it doesn't mean you can convict others based on your own fantasy. What a over-reaction by the way. Just take it easy and talk facts, mate :-P !

[Manekineko]

Well, just talk against the facts, if you can. Don't avoid the reality. Talk about the clips. You are behaving like a judge, but certainly not the one who can judge others. And this place is, I think, not only for you. I understand that you disagree with the idea. I also want to be proven wrong, of course. But, it doesn't mean you can convict others based on your own fantasy. What a over-reaction by the way. Just take it easy and talk facts, mate :-P !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do people prone to over-reactions always complain that other people over-react?

I would like to see genghis talk facts. Please list the bouts in last five years:

1. where clear victory of a foreign rikishi over a Japanese one was followed by mono-ii

2. where a dubious win by a Japanese rikishi over a foreign one was not followed by mono-ii

3. where a draw between a foreign and a Japanese wrestler which (according to slow-mo replay) should have been declared tori-naoshi was awarded to the Japanese wrestler.

etc.

Done? Now make a list of the bouts where foreign wrestlers were unjustly favored in the same way.

And a list of bouts where one foreigner was unjustly favoured against another.

And a list of bouts where one Japanese was unjustly favoured against another.

Only then can you speak of reality of prejudice against foreign wrestlers...

[genghis]

Now u sound more creative. I actually like it. So, lets get back to the business. Considering your notable experience, I would actually be glad to get the statistics from you, so that I can make up my mind, by looking at the clips, if possible. However, there are few points that might need some attention. i) it is only recently that there are so many foreign sekitoris on the arena, so statistics from the last 5 years may well be ill advised. ii) Mono iri between two foreign sekitoris is certainly of no use here, because we are talking about an entirely different case. iv) Considering the big proportion of native wrestlers, any statistics should be normalized. There will be more mono iris between native sekitoris, simply because there is more probability that this event will happen. (Something like: divide the number of mono iris by number of close matches) I guess u got it. This debate can be quite interesting, on the backdrop of decisions made by the YDC: no more than 2 foreign rikishis in any beya.

Ok, thanks and g'luck with your research.

[aderechelsea]

never mind .....

Edited May 13, 2005 by aderechelsea

[Coo-cook]

I, for example, would avoid arguing with arguing machine. (Punk rocker...)

B-)

Oops, off topic.... :-/

Edited May 13, 2005 by Coo-cook

[hoshidango]

I am probably bit too suspicious, but it could be interesting to see if this pattern is a real thing. Close matches with foreign rikishis tend to result in mono-iri.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, that's obviously a pattern. Mostly because close matches with ANY participants tend to result in mono-ii.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah ..Yes, I do agree with the pattern. And precisely beause of the reason given.

[Burainoan]

But what i wanna know is, what's a mono-iri? is something being put inside something else? can't recall seeing that in my ten years of watching sumo....

[Jakusotsu]

Ok, thanks and g'luck with your research.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Still interested after watching Osh's win today? (Clapping wildly...)

(sorry, mods, for reviving this old horse)

[kotooshu_bulgaria]

OK, you got a point here, Jakusotsu. Kotooshu should have lost at least one of the two bouts with Dejima and Wakanosato. (Clapping wildly...)

But still I guess that our friend might ask you to research situations involving only Mongolian wrestlers and no other foreigners. (Doing a wave...)

[genghis]

Dejima's loss was, I think, bit too evident (even with the help of stream) to call it close. Wakanasato's was the same. There is nothing to speculate at this moment, I think. Besides, statistics is a stitistics when there are large number of cases involve. Close match is controversial when the two wrestler's bodies (not toes or heels ) touch the dohyu. I guess, you can at least figure out what it means.