The horizontal right-hand motion when winning

[ShiroiKuma]

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Edited March 26, 2006 by ShiroiKuma

[Hakuyobaku]

I've read somewhere about the movement of a rikishi's hand before picking up kensho. They said that the movement of a hand bears resemblance to kanji of 'heart' which means that he is thankful for those with all his heart. since my knowledge of Japanese is nonexistent, I don't know if that is what it is.

edit: Hmm, I must've missed ShiroiKuma's point there. that means that the thing i was talking about is slightly (Punk rocker...) y. :-D (Holiday feeling...)

Edited January 29, 2005 by Hakuyobaku

[Kintamayama]

I've noticed this Basho that Takamisakari has been taking extra care to do the hand motion when winning right. He must have listend to som of the proper-manner lectures before the Basho well.

What I mean: when a Rikishi wins his bout and there is no Kenshoukin, he simply does a horizontal stroke with his right hand from left to right, inside the right thigh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did Takamisakari EVER have a bout without kenshoukin?

[sumofan]

I've noticed this Basho that Takamisakari has been taking extra care to do the hand motion when winning right. He must have listend to som of the proper-manner lectures before the Basho well.

What I mean: when a Rikishi wins his bout and there is no Kenshoukin, he simply does a horizontal stroke with his right hand from left to right, inside the right thigh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did Takamisakari EVER have a bout without kenshoukin?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

not that i have seen. even with a MK he usually lands enough cash to stay in the kensho top 5. i guess that whenever he goes intai, he has enough money to buy himself a kabu share.

[Jakusotsu]

So must've seen someone else do the horizontal cutting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IIRC, Takamisakari does this finishing horizontal motion after he picks up the envelopes. And I vaguely remember him doing so without kensho-kin as well, but Kintamaya is right: that must have been some time ago.

The question is: did the sekitori do this cutting before the kensho system was devised? Do the lower ranked rikishi do it?

[Doitsuyama]

Yes, all rikishi do it. Sorry, no answers here, but another question... what do amateur rikishi after a win, if anything?

[Mark Buckton]

My question is: What is this hand motion called, it isn't the Tegatana, because that's the three cuts when receiving Kenshoukin?

What is the name?

And what is its religious significance, or any other. The thanking the Gods part again is the Tegatana. So what is this?

[so what is this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A few months ago I posted a report or mentioned a report by a sumo historian mentioning the whole tegatana and its lack of any religious significance. It was started in the 1920s(?) IIRC with the gestures made randomly by a popular ozeki at the time. Proved popular with the crowd and others copied him. Only did Futabayama (as Rijicho) make it an official point - BUT NEVER MENTIONED the RIGHT HAND!! - a point many forget in getting so upset at Asashoryu. (was never to thank the gods as you posted - more like a Roger somebody (Cameroon player 1990 world cup) dance at the corner flag - became popular and others did it)

Often, popular things were 'later' given religious significance during the pre-war military minded nation that was then Japan. Shinto was essentially a dead religion until the few who practiced it fell into favor after 1868 (and one senior at the time claimed to Fukui based American writer....(Farrell / Aston?) that it wasn't a religion - it was a form of people control!)

In conclusion thus - I'd put the single stroke as a custom that has been adopted by rikishi relatively recently and to justify its existence a religious reason is sought to support the meaning. (Punk rocker...)

[Otokonoyama]

A few months ago I posted a report or mentioned a report by a sumo historian mentioning the whole tegatana and its lack of any religious significance.  It was started in the 1920s(?) IIRC with the gestures made randomly by a popular ozeki at the time.  Proved popular with the crowd and others copied him.  Only did Futabayama (as Rijicho) make it an official point - BUT NEVER MENTIONED the RIGHT HAND!! - a point many forget in getting so upset at Asashoryu. (was never to thank the gods as you posted - more like a Roger somebody (Cameroon player 1990 world cup) dance at the corner flag - became popular and others did it)

Often, popular things were 'later' given religious significance during the pre-war military minded nation that was then Japan.  Shinto was essentially a dead religion until the few who practiced it fell into favor after 1868 (and one senior at the time claimed to Fukui based American writer....(Farrell / Aston?) that it wasn't a religion - it was a form of people control!)

In conclusion thus - I'd put the single stroke as a custom that has been adopted by rikishi relatively recently and to justify its existence a religious reason is sought to support the meaning.  (Shaking head...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You'd think any lifetime, avid sumo fan - who also just happened to be studying sumo history and culture (at the post-graduate level?) would know this (Nodding yes...)

Perhaps (s)he's too busy hanging out in the bar districts, watching drunks carry home their take-out sushi... ;-)

Edited January 30, 2005 by Otokonoyama

[Mark Buckton]

I don't understand - you say it was started individually yet that it dates back hundreds of years. If so, it would have fallen out of favor in those years and lost its significance.

In addition, the religious link you provide (thanks for that - saves looking) offers no evidence of such bar recent publication in a book.

Lastly, linking the above to the yumitori - an evidenced part of sumo in many areas is giving exaggerated support to the hand gestures and taking it in context with a confirmed custom in the sport when to it itself is not so 'confirmed'.

Without something more solid I'd honestly go with part of my post above - "to justify its existence a religious reason is sought to support the meaning"

[Otokonoyama]

Some interesting basic Shinto info here, mentioning sumo in brief near the end of the page. Also some links to further study regarding shinto...

[Mark Buckton]

How it was "developped individually" recently was the following: Oozeki Nayoroiwa, who was promoted to Oozeki for second time in 1946, after inuring his leg and losing the rank, started cutting the Tegatana before taking the Kenshoukin.

Before that Rikishi just grabbed the money from the Gouji's Gunbai. He thought it was too impolite. Other Rikishi liked this move and it caught on and it started to be done after every match, i.e. not only after the last three on Senshuuraku.

(Shaking head...) Cheers for the comments Shiroikuma-san. In the second paragraph though you didn't actually give any concrete 'so-and so' is recorded as doing it in 1820 something etc so I honestly find it hard to go with the 'before that' or 'it does date back a long time' without solid NSK references etc. It still, without these references, sounds as if they are looking to 'make it older' to give it more credibility.

(let's not forget - may of Japan's Emperor's tombs were apparently 'selected' and 'established' (by Ito IIRC) during the Meiji era. Scholars even admit that Nintoku's (huge keyhole shape one) contains a local chappie from a time wholly unconnected to Nintoku.

Shiroikuma-san, last year I gave some dates of 1920s / 30s Juryo blokes and their respective hatsu dohyo / retirements etc based on info given me directly from NSK records that I went over with my own eyes. This info DIDN'T match supposed dates for such in the internet / non-NSK world. Which would be right though? The person I gave them to is one of the sports best collectors of such info I believe with a brilliant homepage although a little in need of update. - member of SF - but had, until then I guess no direct access to these true records - myths evolve when people 'want' to see something. Will ask the NSK direct this week on this issue and let you know.

Also, slight side subject but I didn't know about his 2 time promotion to Oozeki - thought everyone was so impressed recently with Tochiazuma as he was the first - me mistaken I guess?

[Mark Buckton]

spoke to the NSK today - same people who helped Nishinoshima ID one of his tegata scrolls (Kaio) a while back.

Anyhow - NSK do say it was first made popular in 1946 (all info above) but WAS rumored to have taken place before that but then only as far back as 1942 / 43 (no typo) - my own point here is consider the dates, the nationalism / rampant shintoism sweeping the nation - and this is a potential for the 'god respect' connections.

Nothing exists before this period apparently. No artwork / ukiyoe / nothing in the rulebooks. Zilch.

Incidentally - same source also confirmed NO PREFERENCE exists between left and right hand - nothing along these lines has been added since Futabayama Rijicho first decreed the tegatana be used in the 60s. Uchidate - what you on about woman? (Shaking head...)

Second gesture totally slipped my mind - apologies. Will confirm this next time I speak to them.

[Mark Buckton]

This is all OFFICIAL info on the points you mention (bar last single stroke gesture) - clarified by printed records that were checked by kyokai employees whose job is related to the historical aspects of the sport . Not a private insight. (you are grabbing at straws there Shiroikuma to hang on to your historical respect of the gods belief. And your 'was the senshuraku concept included' emphasis - of course this is included)

I won't name names publicly here but will say that Nishinoshima has used this channel before when all at SF failed and couldn't ID that tegata scroll - that ws not a private insight - this is the real deal.

Actually, that private insight comment being annoying to the point of me asking - would other SF members believe the private insight (were it so) of a full time Nihon Sumo Kyokai employee in a position to answer an internet board member / fan many many miles away who is unconnected to the sport and its records in any official sense? :'-( For yourself, white bear - would the SF members be so quick to debunk comments you yourself by Wakanosato / Roho as irrelevant - as private insight and all. :'-(

Thus, this basically concludes the issue as far as sensible thought and capable research goes. Nothing was done prior to the 1940s, nothing is recorded, nothing is known - by those who would know if anyone did.

I trust you have the contacts to check that 'single stroke' gesture yourself Shiroikuma - A Naruto boy perhaps?

Edited January 31, 2005 by Adachinoryu