Dai Yokozuna Asashoryu

[Jesinofuji]

;-) Its all but etched in stone now! (Pulling hair...)

Asashoryu is now a Dai Yokozuna! He is the 9th of all time, and the 3rd foreigner. This is a historic event in the world of Ozumo. That is unless something VERY strange happens within the next few days.

Congratulations Asashoryu! (You are going off-topic...)

[sumofan]

He is the 9th of all time, and the 3rd foreigner. This is a historic event in the world of Ozumo.

congrats Asa indeed, and it is a historic event. (Applauding...)

however: since there are only 9, this means that 1 in 3 is a foreigner.

the statistics were more impressive when the first foreigner became one...

[Elenrian]

A dai-yokozuna, what is it? A yokozuna with 10 yushos? But Asashoryu has only 9!!! (Applauding...) (Applauding...) Who are the others dai-yokozuna?

Takanohana

Taiho

Chiyonofuji

and??? (Applauding...)

[QttP]

Akebono Musashimaru Kitanoumi etc.

[Yubiquitoyama]

A dai-yokozuna, what is it? A yokozuna with 10 yushos? But Asashoryu has only 9!!! (Applauding...)  (Applauding...) Who are the others dai-yokozuna?

Takanohana

Taiho

Chiyonofuji

and??? (Applauding...)

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Tsunenohana

Futabayama

Wakanohana-1

Tochinishiki

Taiho

Kitanofuji

Kitanoumi

Wajima

Chiyonofuji

Akebono

Takanohana-2

Musashimaru

Hm... 9 you say? Anyway, I think these are it...

[Asashosakari]

Asashoryu is now a Dai Yokozuna!

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I'd argue that he's not, at least not in the sense that the term is usually used (as far as my impression of its usage goes, anyway). Being a dai-yokozuna is a perception, not something that one can be declared upon the 10th yusho. I'd certainly agree that his performance on the dohyo is worthy of being called dai, but whether the other elements required for creating that perception are there is not quite settled yet, as we've all come to know and love with Asashoryu. (Applauding...)

For that reason I'm not particularly comfortable with calling somebody active dai...Asashoryu can win 20 yusho, but if he gets himself banned from sumo for, say, challenging his oyakata to a fist fight (just to pick something suitably ridiculous), future sumo fans probably wouldn't quite consider him a dai-yokozuna, just somebody who was very, very dominant on the dohyo.

Edited January 20, 2005 by Asashosakari

[Yubiquitoyama]

Asashoryu is now a Dai Yokozuna!

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I'd argue that he's not, at least not in the sense that the term is usually used (as far as my impression of its usage goes, anyway). Being a dai-yokozuna is a perception, not something that one can be declared upon the 10th yusho. I'd certainly agree that his performance on the dohyo is worthy of being called dai, but whether the other elements required for creating that perception are there is not quite settled yet, as we've all come to know and love with Asashoryu. (Applauding...)

For that reason I'm not particularly comfortable with calling somebody active dai...Asashoryu can win 20 yusho, but if he gets himself banned from sumo for, say, challenging his oyakata to a fist fight (just to pick something suitably ridiculous), future sumo fans probably wouldn't quite consider him a dai-yokozuna, just somebody who was very, very dominant on the dohyo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I tend to think the "being very very dominant on the dohyo" will become "dai-yokozuna" in the mouth of the public eventually even if he DOES come come to an end with fist-fighting Takasago... However, I agree that calling him Dai-Yokozuna while still active doesn't really feel right, or at least doesn't seem to fit the way dai-yokozunas are "crowned". Personally I don't think the 10-yusho criterium is a particularly good one in any case, and my list of whom I would consider Dai-Yokozuna would not look quite like the one above, but even so, I don't think Asashoryu needs to win many more yusho to be on it whenever he retires.

[kotooshu_bulgaria]

Just a thought came to my mind about the notion of "dai-yokozuna." Hasn't it been that in the past there has been usually more than one yokozuna and the current situation with only one yokozuna is kind of rare? Having a number of yokozunas at the same time in the past, thus making the winning of yusho more difficult, makes the value of an yusho higher than it is for the single yokozuna these days. Therefore, I don't believe that he can be proclaimed dai-yokozuna in the conditions of the current low competition, when noone is even close to his class. I hope this piece of brainstorming is clear enough...

[Araiguma_Rascal]

How exactly again do we know the definition of "dai-yokozuna"? Is it a term with an official definition in Ozumo, or in some dictionary, or did we sort of all mutually come to the consensus that over 10 yusho is a dai-yokozuna? Will Shoryuu be getting some sort of plaque or ceremony to celebrate his promotion to dai-yokozunahood?

BTW, does anyone else get the impression that Shoryu is even more dominant now than a year ago? A year ago he also got a zensho yusho, and I have to admit that my memory gets fuzzy about what his sumo was like, but my impression this tournament is that there hasn't even been anyone who should be in the same dohyo with him. He's looking like when they have the little children up in the dohyo to try and push the big sumo wrestler.

Edited January 20, 2005 by Araiguma_Rascal

[Kashunowaka]

Having a number of yokozunas at the same time in the past, thus making the winning of yusho more difficult, makes the value of an yusho higher than it is for the single yokozuna these days.

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Winning the yusho always involves beating more rikishi than anyone else, whether they are yokozuna or not. The presence of 4 yokozuna on the banzuke doesn't *necessarily* mean that the yusho will be harder to win. When we last had 4 yokozuna in 1999-2000 for 5 basho the yusho went to lower-ranked rikshi several times, because of problems with injuries and bad health among the yokozuna.

In contrast, when there were only one yokozuna on the banzuke in 1994, the top of makuuchi was very competitive. Much more so than today. That's not Asashoryu's fault of course, but I agree that the low standard among the rest of the rikishi does lower the value of his yusho somewhat.

BTW, does anyone else get the impression that Shoryu is even more dominant now than a year ago? A year ago he also got a zensho yusho, and I have to admit that my memory gets fuzzy about what his sumo was like, but my impression this tournament is that there hasn't even been anyone who should be in the same dohyo with him. He's looking like when they have the little children up in the dohyo to try and push the big sumo wrestler.

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His most dominant yusho must have been the one in January 2004.

Edited January 20, 2005 by Kashunowaka

[Doitsuyama]

In contrast, when there were only one yokozuna on the banzuke in 1994, the top of makuuchi was very competitive. Much more so than today. That's not Asashoryu's fault of course, but I agree that the low standard among the rest of the rikishi does lower the value of his yusho somewhat.

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I somewhat disagree with that. As you know I'm keeping strength ratings for Makuuchi (and Juryo), and the guys at the very top from 1994 and now don't take away too much from each else. But the big difference are the Komusubi and top Maegashira. 1994 version of joi-jin would be glad to be M7 now, as guys like Iwakiyama, Dejima, Tochinonada, Kotomitsuki, Kokkai, Kyokutenho, Kotooshu etc. are (from the ratings and also from my personal opinion) much more powerful than Higonoumi, Kenko, Misugisato, Daizen or the late Konishiki who populated the joi-jin back then.

Historically speaking Asashoryu's feat indeed is quite good, I must admit. Several zensho among reasonably strong competition can't be taken away. The key to appreciating his performance so far is looking at the number of basho he is doing it in, which are quite few for a Yokozuna going to the tenth yusho, and I can see only Taiho getting faster to the tenth yusho than Asashoryu.

So, yes, I have to admit, I think I'll consider Asashoryu as a Dai-Yokozuna after this basho.

[Kashunowaka]

Historically speaking Asashoryu's feat indeed is quite good, I must admit. Several zensho among reasonably strong competition can't be taken away. The key to appreciating his performance so far is looking at the number of basho he is doing it in, which are quite few for a Yokozuna going to the tenth yusho, and I can see only Taiho getting faster to the tenth yusho than Asashoryu.

So, yes, I have to admit, I think I'll consider Asashoryu as a Dai-Yokozuna after this basho.

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Well, alright. (Applauding...) Can't really argue with that. I did look at your strength ratings, and I thought that the top group in 1994 (especially second half) were a notch better than the top now. But as you say, they are quite close.

[Sasanishiki]

Just adding to this... I feel that the usage of Dai-yokozuna is used as a mark of respect after the retirement of a great yokozuna. Yes, this is usually quanitifed by winning 10 yusho, but it is certainly premature to call Asashoryu a Dai-yokozuna because he is still active. This title (honorific only as far as I know) will no doubt be bestowed on him when he chooses to retire. By then, who knows how many yusho he will have?

[Araiguma_Rascal]

the late Konishiki

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Konishiki died? When was that? I thought I saw him on TV fairly recently. I thought it would have been bigger news if he died.

I have a question about Asashoryu's 10th Yusho. He is still 24 I hear, so is he the youngest to get his 10th yusho?

[Chiyozakura]

the late Konishiki

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Konishiki died? When was that? I thought I saw him on TV fairly recently. I thought it would have been bigger news if he died.

I have a question about Asashoryu's 10th Yusho. He is still 24 I hear, so is he the youngest to get his 10th yusho?

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Taiho won his tenth Yusho at age 22 and with "late Konishiki" Doitsuyama probably meant Konishiki in his last Ozeki basho...

[Zeokage]

the late Konishiki

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Konishiki died? When was that? I thought I saw him on TV fairly recently. I thought it would have been bigger news if he died.

I have a question about Asashoryu's 10th Yusho. He is still 24 I hear, so is he the youngest to get his 10th yusho?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a good question... I KNOW I saw Konishiki on TV, he was with Musashimaru on Bistro SMAP. They ended up having 4 meals cooked for them, even though the second pair of meals were shared with W (the twins).

[QttP]

So it's a conspiracy! Someone poisoned Konishiki and now his fat ghost haunts the MTV Base channel.

[Kashunowaka]

the late Konishiki

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Konishiki died? When was that? I thought I saw him on TV fairly recently. I thought it would have been bigger news if he died.

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Now you are being mean ... you know very well what Doitsuyama means. :-/

[Naganoyama]

the late Konishiki

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Konishiki died? When was that? I thought I saw him on TV fairly recently. I thought it would have been bigger news if he died.

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Now you are being mean ... you know very well what Doitsuyama means. :-/

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I also thought that late meant that he had died.

[kotooshu_bulgaria]

Now, it should be pretty obvious, even to non-native speakers like me that "late," when used about a sportsman, means the late stages of his career. Therefore, we could easily say "the late Maradona," referring to his last years as a soccer player. This definitely does not mean that he died or something! Am I not right?

[Zeokage]

Unfortunately, not to me. :-(

I see "the late [insert name here]" and the instant thought is that they have died. Not the late stages in their career. As far as I knew, if you wanted to refer to a player's final years, you would say just that... "tail end of Maradona's career" or "later in Maradona's career".

Then again it's probably a term I never knew about...

If it had said just "late Konishiki" I would have thought that Konishiki came up to that level later than the others Doitsuyama was talking about.

Edited January 22, 2005 by Zeokage

[sumofan]

Now, it should be pretty obvious, even to non-native speakers like me that "late," when used about a sportsman, means the late stages of his career.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

unfortunatly not.

the word 'late' in that context always means that the person has died.

for what you meant you should have used 'former ozeki konishiki' or something like that.

Edited January 22, 2005 by sumofan

[Higashimori]

the word 'late' in that context always means that the person has died.

for what you meant you should have used 'former ozeki konishiki' or something like that.

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fwiw, when I first read it I took it as Doitsu meant if (eg. Konishiki at the end of his career). Perhaps since there's no way in hell one, being in Japan, would have missed the news of his untimely demise had he died. At any rate, I guess Doitsu could have dragged that ol' sports cliche out, you know "in the twilight of his career" :-(

Edited January 22, 2005 by Higashimori

[Araiguma_Rascal]

I see now. Late in his career. I had wondered if there was another konishiki, but if it was 1994 it must have been the Hawaian one. I was pretty certain that Konishiki was still with us, but as sumofan and nagonoyama say, it does in fact mean that the person has died. I would say "Konishiki near the end of his career," or something like that.

[Guest Cal Golden Bears]

Respect for aSa!!! (Showing respect...)