Deep thoughts about sumo

[Phelix]

Sumo, at least the proffessional version, is isolated to Japan only. It is also very well guarded against foreign influence. This has created a highly specialized sport, unlike all others. Now is this a blessing or a curse?

Blessing, because it preserves the sport, protecting it against such sillyness as football hooliganism, and the inevitable anonymity that follows upon an internationalization of the sport.

...or...

Curse because it conserves the sport, preventing it from the inevitable development that follows upon a rich and free flow of foreign practicers.

What are your thoughts on this matter? I can

[Ryukaze]

Hey I just noticed this, good post brother! Gotta sleep tho! my 4.20$ on thistommorow! -

Edited November 29, 2004 by Ryukaze

[Doitsuyama]

Hey I just noticed this, good post brother! Gotta sleep tho! my 4.20$ on thistommorow! -

Make it a least "sister", not brother... keep the facts straight, will you... (Applauding...)

[Ryukaze]

OK.....I beleive a (and this goes for any) sport is most definately benefitted in every aspect by opening its doors to the world. Why?

1. It can devolp a worldwide market, fans, popularity, $$$$,etc.

2. It is also good for the sport itself in terms of competition (Im so sick and tired of hearing teams that win the super bowl or nba title being called"World Champions" when they're not! they only play in the U.S.!) Athletes or teams who excel in sports that are participated in worldwide have accomplished much more as opposed to a team who wins its "home country" sport only.

I'll spare the long list by putting prettty much everything in #1 lol

But as both a competator and fan I can't help but think of the wonders this could do for Sumo, especially given its rather sparse level of "home support" at the moment. Not to mention how can any true fan of any sport not think of how great the competition could be if it were elevated to a worldwide level. Isn't this what makes the Olympics such a spectactle?????

But of course Japan of all countries would be the last to let go of its "katai" tradition and open its "National sport" to the world, (amongst other things). Many would argue that if this did happen it would loose its "Tradional mystique" perhaps but I dont see why. Sumo is already performed outside of Japan so if this is a breach of tradition its already happened. As long as sumo is done in Japan I see no reason why it should ever loose its tradion or exclusiveness., nor why it's spread as a proffesional sport throughout the world should not be allowed. -

[Otokonoyama]

But of course Japan of all countries would be the last to let go of its "katai" tradition and open its "National sport" to the world, (amongst other things).  Many would argue that if this did happen it would loose its "Tradional mystique" perhaps but I dont see why.  Sumo is already performed outside of Japan so if this is a breach of tradition its already happened.  As long as sumo is done in Japan I see no reason why it should ever loose its tradion or exclusiveness., nor why it's spread as a proffesional sport throughout the world should not be allowed. -

A guy I know of in Nagoya does/did judo for a long time here in Japan...here's an excerpt from some of his writing on his experience (may be somewhat relevant to your thoughts here) - warning - he uses some strong language:

I did Judo for about twenty years at the Kodokan in Tokyo and Meiji University. Other than Sumo I can't think of a Japanese sport more hidebound with conservative thinking than Judo. The actual practice is damn tough and eventually you'll pick up enough injuries that will force you into retirement. Old and healthy are not words you

[Kintamayama]

Sumo is already performed outside of Japan so if this is a breach of tradition its already happened.  As long as sumo is done in Japan I see no reason why it should ever loose its tradion or exclusiveness., nor why it's spread as a proffesional sport throughout the world should not be allowed. -

No it isn't. Amateur Sumo has nearly none of Sumo's "traditional" features. It starts and ends with a mawashi and the rules, more or less.

Edited November 30, 2004 by Kintamayama

[Ryukaze]

Sumo is already performed outside of Japan so if this is a breach of tradition its already happened.

[Otokonoyama]

Sumo is already performed outside of Japan so if this is a breach of tradition its already happened.  As long as sumo is done in Japan I see no reason why it should ever loose its tradion or exclusiveness., nor why it's spread as a proffesional sport throughout the world should not be allowed. -

No it isn't. Amateur Sumo has nearly none of Sumo's "traditional" features. It starts and ends with a mawashi and the rules, more or less.

Japan sends teams to these international amateur events...are they interested in accolades from victories & championships, or are they trying to reclaim sumo as 'their own'?

[Guest Needle201]

well, Japan has a very deep and interesting culture, as well as a deep feeling of honour.

Judo, Karate, Ju-Jutsu or Playing I-Go...

its always some foreigner taking parts of Japans culture and history, and doing it better than the Japanese..

Now we have a mongolian Yokozuna, the Worldchampion in i-Go is a korean or chinese, Karate is a worldwide thing, as is Judo and Ju Jutsu..No serious japanese competition anymore.

Japanese almost dont play any larger part in their old national sports these days. Its depressing.

These things make up a good part of the "Japanese soul", and now foreigners are all over it and dominating.

you have to understand the japanese mindset a little bit...these are people that eat only japanese rice, even if it means they have to import everything else, because japanese rice is better than any other one. and they pay outrageous prices for that rice.

In their mindset only japanese can properly talk and understand japanese, and if you show them that you are reading kanji, they are in complete disbelief most of the time...

Japanese feel that by being born in Japan they are something special, in their own "island" culture...

Sumo is the last holy cow of sports that oldstyle Japan has, so why should they give it away. whats left then?

[Xris]

Japanese almost dont play any larger part in their old national sports these days. Its depressing.

These things make up a good part of the "Japanese soul", and now foreigners are all over it and dominating.

Have you really seen the Japanese results in Judo in the last olympics. Not really anything to be ashamed of!

Now Sumo is not so popular as before in Japan!, which is another problem! It's not just a foreigner/Japanese problem. They can try to protect sumo by making it a foreigner non-grata sport, but it won't change anything with their problem with sumo popularity.

[Phelix]

Make it a least "sister", not brother... keep the facts straight, will you... :-)

Thank you! :-)

Yes, this is an obstacle. I can understand the fear of letting the "gaijins" invade the holy sport of sumo. But what is the real love for the sport; the wish to preserve and protect it even if it means keeping it from evolving, or wanting the sport to evolve and the rikishis to be better and better, no matter the origin of the evolvers.

Another thing, did you notice the Russian and Bulgarian supporters shown on Eurosport the last basho? They, for me, are the final proof that sumo will conquer the world, or the world will conquer sumo - even if it is kicking and screaming. Better to have it done in peace.

[sumofan]

Old and healthy are not words you

Edited November 30, 2004 by sumofan

[Ryukaze]

You think the Japanese would be eager to show their superiority and strength in their nat. sport to the world (i.e. take the world to school he he) which is the attitude i would like to see them adopt, and none of this culture and tradition bullcrap.

[Kishinoyama]

You think the Japanese would be eager to show their superiority and strength in their nat. sport to the world (i.e. take the world to school he he) which is the attitude i would like to see them adopt, and none of this culture and tradition bullcrap.

To me the culture and tradition are part of the things that make sumo a great sport. Maybe some things could be tweeked here and there to make sumo more appealing to the public but no wholesale changes are needed. :-P

[Yoavoshimaru]

Culture and tradition have significant value. They are what elevates a sport from mere technique or talent into a passion and an art in some cases. They provide motivation for competitors of all levels, old and new, as illustrated by the judo posting above.

Opening a sport to the world has advantages, but the governing body can and should take care to ensure the integrity of the sport isn't harmed. Some aspects naturally change over time, especially such a long time as sumo has been around. For example, the women on the dohyo issue.

The argument that opening a sport encourages competition is not completely correct as long as the sport (or its govening body) allows foreigners to compete. The good players move around. This happens, for example, with the best American (North and South) soccer players (who are picked up by European teams), and the best European and South American basketball players (who are picked up by NBA teams). It happens in Sumo as well, especially recently. You can actually extend this thinking to commodities in general, not just atheletes, but that's a different story.

So the bottom line is the same as with nearly every globalization issue: there are both advantages and disadvantages, and care must be taken.

[Kashunowaka]

You think the Japanese would be eager to show their superiority and strength in their nat. sport to the world (i.e. take the world to school he he) which is the attitude i would like to see them adopt, and none of this culture and tradition bullcrap.

If you think that is bullcrap, I cannot understand why you are interested in sumo in the first place.

[Phelix]

Yes, but where does the weight lie? I mean whats most important? Preservation or evolution?

[Kintamayama]

You think the Japanese would be eager to show their superiority and strength in their nat. sport to the world (i.e. take the world to school he he) which is the attitude i would like to see them adopt, and none of this culture and tradition bullcrap.

Newsflash: They don't give a hoot what the world thinks-it's their sport-if the world doesn't like it, to hell with them. No one is forcing the world to watch. You want to do "real" Sumo? Come to Japan. They don't want pro-Sumo leagues sprouting around the world. You wanna know why? Because the world, like you, may think the tradition is bullcrap, and "lose" it after a while. Then, to sell more tickets, it gets dressed up and orchestrated. In a while, you get your WWF/E /whatever clone, but with mawashi. There are all kinds of circus sports in the world, waaay too many to my liking.

The bullcrap is what keeps it alive, sir. If you don't get it, you're missing the whole point, even if you speak Japanese really really well.

Edited November 30, 2004 by Kintamayama

[Kishinoyama]

Yes, but where does the weight lie? I mean whats most important? Preservation or evolution?

I think about this quite often.

So maybe Nihon Sumou Kyoukai is doing exactly what it should?

ShiroiKuma

Now this is some real deep thinking. I am going to have to read this several times to get all of the points made by ShiroiKuma. (Welcome...)

Edited November 30, 2004 by Kishinoyama Whitney

[Rijicho]

Now this is some real deep thinking. I am going to have to read this several times to get all of the points made ShiroiKuma. blink.gif

I agree with 100% Great in-depth thought-provoking post by Shiroikuma as usual! Really good to have you here sharing your views on sumoudou and sumou!

Whitney: Don't quote whole messages. Keep quoted parts as small as possible and if you want to refer to the whole post, no need to quote anything at all really as you can easily refer to the post in your own post. Long quotes are unnecessary weight on threads and serve no purpose.

[Kishinoyama]

Whitney: Don't quote whole messages. Keep quoted parts as small as possible and if you want to refer to the whole post, no need to quote anything at all really as you can easily refer to the post in your own post. Long quotes are unnecessary weight on threads and serve no purpose.

Thanks for the advice. It is an easy fix. I will edit out most of the quote. (Welcome...)

[Otokonoyama]

An excellent post, as usual (Welcome...)

Just a couple points at the moment:

1. The 'sportification' of an 'art/way/lifestyle' can have its inception in Japan ie. judo, where it was Japanese efforts to have it included in the Olympics that sent judo on its road to becoming more sport than art. In the earlier days of judo, it was also seen as a package of moral and ethical ideals for the perfection of one's self and mutual benefit.

2. At least some foreigners must 'get it' ie. the purpose of sumodou...youself being a fine example (Sigh...)

[Ryukaze]

      The bullcrap is what keeps it alive, sir. If you don't get it, you're missing the whole point, even if you speak Japanese really really well.

LOL? Well excuse me SIR, but I was in no way reffering to the culture and tradition of Japanese sumo as "crap". Just the using that as a reason why the sport should not be allowed to expand and progress on a more worldwide level is what is "CRAP".

Shiroikuma's comments are well noted. I dont understand why sumo as long as it is practiced in Japan should have to loose anything (culture,tradition,sumoudo etc.) Are they afraid if it is practiced outside of Japan this will happen as well, and thus simply just cant allow it? I think their smothering an excellent sport that has a chance to become much more than what it already is, they opened their country to foreigners, and they can (and should) open their sport as well.

Edited December 1, 2004 by Ryukaze

[Kintamayama]

I dont understand why sumo as long as it is practiced in Japan should have to loose anything (culture,tradition,sumoudo etc.)  Are they afraid if it is practiced outside of Japan this will happen as well, and thus simply just cant allow it?

Yes they are, exactly.

And it seems I wasn't the only one who thought you were referring to the culture and tradition of Japanese Sumo as "bullcrap".

Edited December 1, 2004 by Kintamayama

[Phelix]

ShiroiKuma - I can only bow for your knowledge.

Maybe there is a middle way? Obviously there are foreigner deeply concerned with sumo first and Athlete second. As I remember Kotooshu said that he was deeply interested in sumo, many years before he moved to Japan. There must be more people like him? And would these deeply interested ones follow sumos way as good as a japanese one?