Why you "DON'T" support Asashoryu

[QttP]

Asashoryu, who is still very young, is no exception. Though his behavior is far from the worst among former Yokozuna, and most of the people who hate him have done the same kind of stuff in their lives. The tabliod media is on Asashoryu's case more than his predecessors, and many people are too easily infulenced by the media.

Asashoryu is not very young. It's about time you stop using that "excuse". Most people are very mature by the age of 23, and change little afterwards. He's not a kid, and he should not be excused for stuff that some kids do.

As for "doing the same stuff", then it may be partially true (depending on what stuff you mean), but you have to remember that "most of those people" were never in Asashoryu's position, i.e. being a famous person, constantly in the spotlight, expected to behave by a certain code. I bet that if they were, very few people would behave like him. Evidently, he is one of the controversial yokozuna when it comes to behavior, even if he is not (and he is not) the most controversial one.

[Coo-cook]

QttP,

OK.You hate Asashoryu, because of his behavior. Everybody seems to understand it.

Then, you said "you hate Hakuho". If I understood you correctly, you have been just childish and careless with your expressions. (Mommy, I hate this candy, ...or I hate this dress...etc) And, it's totally OK with me.

But, the word "hate" is often misunderstood in my culture.

The translation of the word "hate" is very narrow and the meaning is very serious.

I don't know how it perceived in other cultures.

What I'm saying is there are chances you can be misunderstood, if you use the word "hate" often.

[Otokonoyama]

As I've said before, I actually like Asashoryu, BUT dislike some of the "logic" used to justify and excuse various and sundry misbehaviour.

He has come from a different place and culture and achieved an amazing feat in a relatively short period of time. He has that 'eye of the tiger' that makes him exciting to watch. I see enough clock-punchers at work...don't wanna watch more stiffs on the dohyo.

Yup, he's messed-up plenty, but still fires up the fans, and delivers the goods. As a fan, I expect a little more from him than I do from the average sixpack-Suzuki-san. No excuses! Just do better, keep improving (Whistling...)

[Jesinofuji]

Though I sympathise with the sentiment, I disagree with the logic that (nearly) everyone else, yokozuna and mere mortals alike, have been bad - so it's ok for Asashoryu.  The *hinkaku* requirement for yokozuna is no secret - all who aspire to the role know what it's all about well beforehand.  This, and other bits of *reigi* are what separate Ozumo from the NBA.  And as far as tabloids devoting more ink to 'Shoryu than former yokozuna, could you give us something concrete please?  Usually, Newtonian laws apply - for ever action... ;-)

(Sigh...)

OK, want to see some anti-Asahsoryu tabliods?

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3585&hl=

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=1174&hl=

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=shukan&id=211&page=5

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=shukan&id=238

if you want more do a google search, you'll find tons.

also try this one, its an interesting read

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3114&hl=

There are so many professions that people can enter where they are expected to behave with a certain degree of maturity. Doctors, Politicians, Policemen, firefighters, the list goes on. Asashoryu is a sportsman, a sportsman is an entertainer. Why then should we expect more from a sportsman than we do from any of these other professions. I do not see any logical reason why we should. Therefore we should not worry about the personal lives of entertainers, and should pay more attention to the maturity of people in professions where they are in a position where other peoples lives are at stake. Like it or not, a full contact sport is a profession that is likely to attract people with bad tempers. I'd rather Asashoryu be a Yokozuna than a surgeon anyway.

I also find it very hypocritical to see people who engage in the same kind of behaviors as Asashoryu looking down upon him for it. Then to hear them say 'Well, I'm not a Yokozuna, so its ok for me, ha ha' I just want to puke.

I'm not saying this about all SML members, as a small minority of purists do exist. Speaking of which:

Asashoryu is not very young. It's about time you stop using that "excuse". Most people are very mature by the age of 23, and change little afterwards. He's not a kid, and he should not be excused for stuff that some kids do.

Qttp, you are very young. Yes, when you are 23 or 24, you are still pretty much a kid. You may not think you are, but you are. Most people probably had at one point in their lives agreed with the above quote. When I was your age I probably would have said the same thing. Who knows, maybe Asashoryu would have too (o I see a poll comming, nah probably best let go...). But people change. Maybe you will change too. I've heard so many people swear they'd never touch beer or stay out past midnight, etc...only to turn around and become a completely different person in the blink of an eye. A little corruption never hurt anyone. :-P (In a state of confusion...) (Punk rocker...)

Edited November 22, 2004 by Jesinofuji

[Zentoryu]

Grab a stick, find a dead horse, start beating....

[Ryukaze]

Grab a stick, find a dead horse, start beating....

LOL! Yeah good post bro! thanks! (Sign of disapproval) lol..........!

[Yubiquitoyama]

Grab a stick, find a dead horse, start beating....

LOL! Yeah good post bro! thanks! (Sign of disapproval) lol..........!

What has the (Sign of disapproval) smiley got to do with laughing out loud???

Anyway, it isn't as if it's the first time Jesinofuji has delivered exactly that speech above...

Edited November 22, 2004 by Yubiquitoyama

[Zentoryu]

Grab a stick, find a dead horse, start beating....

LOL! Yeah good post bro! thanks! (Sign of disapproval) lol..........!

What has the (Sign of disapproval) smiley got to do with laughing out load???

Anyway, it isn't as if it's the first time Jesinofuji has delivered exactly that speech above...

Precisely, this whole conversation, almost word for word, took place a couple of months ago. Could've saved some time by just cut and pasting from the old thread.

Edited November 22, 2004 by Zentoryu

[Iwagakki]

I just happen to have both sticks, and dead horses for sale on my website...

(In a state of confusion...)

[Guest MGLSekitori]

This Qttp fella seems to have so much hatred aimed towards Mongolian sumotories. That appalls me!

[Asashosakari]

I must admit it's wickedly funny to see how many Asashoryu fans frequently get awfully defensive as soon as somebody doesn't toe the party line here. Are you that insecure in your fandom that you can't take opposing viewpoints at face value? Folks, Asashoryu is a damn good rikishi, he certainly doesn't need you to shout down the opposition. Really, I'm serious.

It's incredibly tiresome, and in fact is one reason why people in the middle (like me, for instance) end up disliking Shoryu more than we otherwise would. You are reflecting badly on the Yokozuna with your rather obnoxious and boorish behavior. If that's your goal, great going. If not, perhaps you could go ahead and undergo a bit of the attitude adjustment that you always seem to be demanding QttP and other Asashoryu-dislikers should have.

And for Jesinofuji, I have to agree with QttP. I'm 24, and most people my age that I know are remarkably mature, particularly when I compare them to what passes for maturity in our parents' generation sometimes. (But that's a different rant. Flower Power's dead, at any rate.) Your mileage may vary, but that would perhaps seem to reflect more on the people you associate with, rather than be any indication of QttP's misunderstanding of himself and the world.

Anyway, (Enjoying a beer...) and killed the horse twice over now.

[Kishinoyama]

I must admit it's wickedly funny to see how many Asashoryu fans frequently get awfully defensive as soon as somebody doesn't toe the party line here. Are you that insecure in your fandom that you can't take opposing viewpoints at face value? Folks, Asashoryu is a damn good rikishi, he certainly doesn't need you to shout down the opposition. Really, I'm serious.

Time for me to take my turn beating the horse. I am a fan of Asashoryu. I know others despise him and yet others respect his skill on the dohyo but don't like his actions. I am not proud of everything he has done since he become a Yokozuna, or before he was promoted, but I still support him. My point being this. No one is gonna change my mind about him and for those who don't like him, I am not going to change how they feel about him. No worries here. (Enjoying a beer...)

Edited November 22, 2004 by Whitney

[KIKENNA]

It's "easy" to cheer for the top man in any sport, and I've "overgrown" that phase (heh, I was a huge Prost fan in his heyday, when I was some 6-8 years old). In many of my favorite sports I tended to go for the noble underdogs: in F1 (I stopped watching it now) I cheered for Alesi-Berger duo in Ferrari, in ski-jumping my heart was conquered by the unlucky Happy Harada, struggling Norge team and never-the-bride Ahonen... Schmidt and Hanni just kept getting on my nerves.  (Enjoying a beer...) So naturally, in sumo I cheer for the wierdest combo of veterans, small guys, cuddly guys and unlucky guys - and Asashoryu isn't in any of the categories (except maybe small).

-------------------

Maybe the guys and ladies who have been around for some time in this forum shouldn't be so negative about couple of us who are new to the FORUM discussing the asa case all over again or any other. And if you see the name of the topic that you don't find too interesting DON' (Censored) READ IT!

--------------------

I can definitely relate to Manekineko on F1 matter (I used to cheer for Alesi also when I was younger, and now I'm a huge fan of Juan Pablo's) and don't get me started on ski jumping... ( weird we like same sports…) But in this particular case (mine that is) I don't think it's the matter of "overgrowing". I liked Asashoryhu the first time I saw him on eurosport. And I feel ecstatic that I followed him to the yokozuna rank he's holding now. Him being the best (now) is not something that could make me not cheering for him in his every bout.

And I’ve also got a couple of views from a female angle on Kotonowaka which put him within the girl’s favourites, so don’t tell me you’re cheering for the underdogs. :-) He’s definitely not an underdog in that department, that’s what I’ve heard!

-------------------

But there's one thing I don't understand and that everyone else is agreeing upon.

I LIKE Asa because of his cockyness, taking the money with left hand and that look he always gives- lifting up his right eyebrow, that camera picks. I like that little smile when he crushes his opponents. I like him being bully-boy sometimes. I like him being a DIFFERENT yokozuna. And I don't think he will change too much with age. I like sumo because we have totally different people kicking ass around the dohyo during their five minutes of glory- Takanohana and Asashoryu for example. I don't think there is such a strict yokozuna attitude that should be followed to death or something. If Asa is a yokozuna- then THIS is a yokozuna behaviour. Yokozunas are there because they deserved it. And who are we (well, you) to explain to Asashoryu what is a “proper” yokozuna behaviour ?!

I’m sure in one thing: I wouldn’t like being an Asa hater. He’s just too much of a character. (In a bad mood...)

[Asashosakari]

Maybe the guys and ladies who have been around for some time in this forum shouldn't be so negative about couple of us who are new to the FORUM discussing the asa case all over again or any other. And if you see the name of the topic that you don't find too interesting DON' (Censored)  READ IT!

Thing is, it's pretty clear that many diehard Asashoryu fans don't actually want a discussion, they just want a mutual ego-stroking session in which no dissent is tolerated. Perhaps this could be stated explicitly beforehand the next time so us lesser mortals would know to stay away from the thread before the ad hominem abuse starts. In fact, I don't post in most Asashoryu-themed threads for that exact reason. It's well on the way to an echo chamber, so congrats for that.

I forget who suggested it sarcastically a few months ago, but maybe it's time after all for a subforum in which Asashoryu fans can exclusively go on at length about how great he is. Perhaps make it by-invite only, so no doubleplusungood opinions seep in.

Edited November 22, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Mark Buckton]

Maybe the guys and ladies who have been around for some time in this forum shouldn't be so negative about couple of us who are new to the FORUM discussing the asa case all over again or any other. And if you see the name of the topic that you don't find too interesting DON' (Censored)

[Kishinoyama]

Thing is, it's pretty clear that many diehard Asashoryu fans don't actually want a discussion, they just want a mutual ego-stroking session in which no dissent is tolerated. Perhaps this could be stated explicitly beforehand the next time so us lesser mortals would know to stay away from the thread before the ad hominem abuse starts. In fact, I don't post in most Asashoryu-themed threads for that exact reason. It's well on the way to an echo chamber, so congrats for that.

I forget who suggested it sarcastically a few months ago, but maybe it's time after all for a subforum in which Asashoryu fans can exclusively go on at length about how great he is. Perhaps make it by-invite only, so no doubleplusungood opinions seep in.

I don't mind a discussion on Asashoryu but I am not going to change anyone's opinion and they are not going to change mine. The fans that like Asashoryu should lighten up. You like him and so do I but you can't force others to agree with you and you are wasting your time trying to do that. If their was no Asashoryu I would STILL WATCH SUMO. Sumo is more important to me than any one rikishi. A similar discussion on the mailing list a few months back ended up pretty much the same way. I was a part of that discussion and it really was silly. I am no better than anyone on this list, no worse either (Applauding...) but I am not posting anymore on this topic. I have other places to use the few brain cells I have left like maybe some off-topic topics. B-)

[Kishinoyama]

(Applauding...) but Asa-san - are you really a non-native English speaker?

I'm not blowing smoke where it is darkest here but your / others English amazes me at times.

B-) to you all who are non-English speakers - regardless of level and time spent on the language. Bravo to you all.

I want to add a second to the comments about the non-native English speakers... I wish I could speak any language as well as those of you that can speak/write English.

[Ryukaze]

I could care less if someone dislikes him (as long as you have a valid reason! lol) thats all, (and no "because he's too good" or "He wins too much" or "He's too mean" doesnt qualify! lol). Im not interested in trying to sway anyone however, (I think his sumo speaks for itself) just as long as you can, too somewhat of a degree back up your opinion. (Applauding...) yoroshiku!-

Edited November 23, 2004 by Ryukaze

[Otokonoyama]

OK, want to see some anti-Asahsoryu tabliods?

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3585&hl=

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=1174&hl=

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=shukan&id=211&page=5

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=shukan&id=238

if you want more do a google search, you'll find tons.

also try this one, its an interesting read

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3114&hl=

Jesi-kun,

You claimed the tabloids devoted more print to 'Shoryu's troubles than past yokozunas' troubles. Put your money where your mouth is. Quoting a sumo forum topic is interesting, but not a tabloid article as you yourself, being a native English speaker, should know. So what would pass for evidence would be something like this: you go back and find out how many negative articles were published about Akebono in his first two years as yokozuna, and compare that number with the number printed on Asashoryu. Or Asahifuji articles vs. Asashoryu articles. If that's not possible, how about a few qualifiers in your posts....ie. seems like; appears to me; reeks of; raises my eyebrows... (Applauding...)

Edited November 23, 2004 by Otokonoyama

[Jesinofuji]

LOL...being told to put my money where my mouth is by a guy whose only evidence to support his point comes down to asking me to find his a haiku written before 1973! (Applauding...) I'm not going to waste my time finding evidence to support a point that has been stated by many times and has been generally accepted on this forum. A better solution is for you to go back to the beginning and start reading old posts. That way your own ignorance will not come into play so much.

Edit: Actually don't bother, I know you won't anyway. I want to know why you are generally so quiet,but always show up when I post? Still mad about the hockey or something?

Edited November 23, 2004 by Jesinofuji

[Asashosakari]

Edit:

Edited November 23, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Mark Buckton]

(Jesi) - who's generally quiet here and only shows up when certain topics are being discussed? (Like, say, Asashoryu.)

Good points above. (Applauding...)

Bit I quoted though - was loving that - still, all good things must come to an end. :'-(

[Otokonoyama]

Let's close this out on a positive note:

Jesi, dude...I've been taken to task for my posts before (by such illustrious posters as Kinta-san, ANR, Asashosakari, and Sasanishiki). Those who raised questions did so politely, and backed their words up with facts and logic. They've certainly given me pause to think, and helped me refine and improve my own posts. Just because one poster contradicts another, doesn't mean it's personal. Same applies here. But as this is a discussion board, I'd hope we all try to discuss the issues - and avoid preaching. Worship is best left in church.

Regards,

-Otoko

[Itachi]

They may complain Ryu but they responded didn't they?

I enjoyed reading about how people's attitudes changed or didn't change regarding Asashoryu.

Unfortunately this thread was marred more then once by impolite posters. I nearly left without responding but I thought I'd just do a little 'IN YOUR FACE' to those who attacked your desire to have another go at the topic.

In most spectator sports there are players or even teams that fans love to hate. Usually they have to be a threat to win to be hated.

I agree that Asashoryu hasn't always measured up to the nobility of his rank but I love his competitve drive. The same passion that drives him to dominate the sprot is the one that leads him to seemingly immature actions on and off the dohyo. I think he will settle down with age and meanwhile, he is a fantastic wrestling villain for fans to disapprove of if they wish to boo someone.

I am very glad that he kicks butt as emphatically as he does.

[QttP]

At the risk of taking this thread a bit more off-topic, I feel that I should reply to some of the early stuff said about me here. Apparently, it may seem as if I hate all Mongolian rikishi in sumo.

Well, such misunderstandings are possible when one doesn't tend to always write longish posts and often gives only short, "in the face" comments, as I do. On certain occasionns I wish that I could write longer, but don't have time (even now as I'm typing there are people rushing me to get up from the chair lol), sometimes I just don't feel that a certain opinion needs real backup or I feel that no real backup could be given (an opinion after all) and therefore I leave it at the "he who would understand - will understand". I see how it can be problematic.

Well, let me take this "QttP hates all Mongolian rikishi because he's a racist jerk" statement and break it into blocks.

This post will be without emoticons, at all. If you can't understand when I'm joking and when I'm being serious - try to guess (my calculus teacher told us something similar a while ago).

First, QttP - yeah, that's my nickname here, although I have absolutely no idea how it originated, all I can say is that it has absolutely nothing to do with billiard and cue-tips. Luckily, that's not the issue.

Now, the word "hate". I realize that it may seem too harsh in many cases to describe one's attitude to sports. Coo-cook mentioned before that "hate" in his culture is only used in very serious meanings, and so it may seem even more harsh.

What do I mean when I say that I "hate" a certain rikishi, a certain basketball team or anything sports-related? Well, it's very simple. It means that I get happy (sometimes very happy) when they lose and sad (sometimes very sad) when they win. I'd like to see them lose every time. There's no more to it. "Hate" in this case for me does not mean that I wish them harm, does not mean that I will start writing threatening letters or rig their car (in case anyone interprets it like that).

Now the argument that "hate" is too strong a word or too strong an emotion for sports is something I don't agree with (I think we had a discussion on it once). Some sports fans are more emotional, others are less. I am clearly of the "more emotional" types if you look on averages - when Chiyotaikai beats someone, it gives my entire day a special warm feeling, not so when he loses. Some people can't understand why others take these things personally, and why would they even care about it five minutes after it's over. This is life.

Then again, I'm not what you'd call a "diehard" fan of anyone or anything. I don't recall I've ever went to any sporting events since I was 7. I support from afar, but I can get very emotional. I really do feel love and hate when it comes to this, so that is why I use this word, and not something more neutral like "dislike", "don't support". These would simply not conduct the meaning. I want it to sound harsh.

(OK, the people who were bugging me have left, I can make this longer)

Now, as for the "all mongolian rikishi". That's not true. I was never and I'm still not prejudiced against mongolians in any way, much less against rikishi. I absolutely adore Kyokushuzan, I kinda like Kyokutenho, most of the others I'm pretty neutral about (Ama, Tokitenku).

There's one thing I really don't like and it is hype. Can't stand it. Probably something screwed up in my brain, but that's just how it is. Be that hype justified or not, it sickens me. The hype around Asashoryu existed way before he became as great as he is now, and probably contributed a good deal to my feelings towards him. It seems that there are certain rikishi that accumulate a certain amount of hype around them, and that makes me partially dislike these rikishi for a certain period of time. Look at Asasekiryu. I used to not like him for a while. I remember all the fuss around him after his fluke 13-2 basho, and I remember how I wanted to see him fail right after that. Now he has sunk into mediocrity, the hype died down, and I realized that I have absolutely nothing against little Seki. And no, not only because he's low on the banzuke and isn't a real force. I don't care if he becomes a force or not, my feelings towards him are completely neutral.

Like I said, it's I'm who is screwed up with this hype issue, not you guys, not Asasekiryu, not even Asashoryu.

And of course, when the situation in sumo is the way it is, most of the promising young talents are foreigners, most of them Mongolians, and they generate most of the hype, it may seem at times that I dislike all Mongolian rikishi. Allow me to assure you that it is not so. Of course, there is a certain sense of competition, with "my home boys" Kokkai and Roho in the picture (to all who don't know, I am Russian), and of course, when Roho clashes with a Mongolian young talent, I'm gonna root for him, a lot, but it is all part of the sports. Just like I'm gonna root for Chiyotaikai even when he's against Kokkai and I'm gonna always root for Buyuzan, especially when he's against Asasekiryu (that's a great made-up rivalry for me, apparently for Kaikitsune also).

So who do I really "hate" among Mongolian rikishi? Asashoryu, from reasons that were discussed to death, and Hakuho, from the same reason Jesinofuji loves him - the henka he pulled against Hokutoriki (again I remember discussing it to death when it was relevant, will not repeat now). Unfortunately for me, these two guys are here to stay and Hakuho is going to be great too, so I will have to eat lots of crap due to hating them. Well, I still haven't learned how to choose my loved ones and hated ones, so I guess I'm stuck. You people will have lots of fun teasing me in the future years.

I hope that clears that up.

About "racist". Well, since it's neither the time nor the place to discuss racism in general and my racism in particular, I will only say that accusing me or the SumoForum staff in racism based on the opinions voiced in this thread or in others is just another example of this word being used completely out of place, without any justification, which strengthens my complete dislike of the word itself. It's a very easy way to try to delegitimize someone or his opinions by throwing the word "racist" at him. In general I can only advise people to stop doing so, and in my case I can just assure you that it doesn't work. I'm not offended when people call me "racist".

Finally, about "jerk". Well, it's for each and every one to judge, and I'm pretty sure that I'm a jerk to a certain extent (maybe even "obnoxious jerk"). Sometimes I get mad at people, sometimes I piss them off unintentionally, sometimes intentionally, sometimes I'm being too cynical or too arrogant in conversations. I'm as far from perfect as you could be, but then again, I shouldn't be perfect, because I'm not a yokozuna (I'm just E. Yokozuna on some message boards including this one, all self-proclaimed).

This one actually dragged much longer than I planned it to, much much longer, but I was getting the feeling that I was becoming more and more misunderstood here. I'm not sure whether this will solve more questions than it will raise (like, for example, regarding my mental health), but at least I hope it will be new questions.

I do want to conclude this rather sad rant that definitely does not make me look any better than I did before by saying that when all things are accounted for, I really appreciate this forum, and the sumo fans community, and I'm happy being part of this community. I'm happy that most of us can get along, despite the difference in opinions, and I hope it will stay this way.

So, an early New Year wish, if you wish - May SumoForum and the sumo fans community continue being as great as it is, and may it never die, as long as there are at least two "fat guys in oversized thongs pushing each other around in a little circle" in the world.

Now I can go back to my one-liners.

QttP out.