Kyushu 2025 discussion (results)

[Godango]

2 hours ago, Morty said:

Onosato seems to be in a league all his own. This is what a proper dominant Yokozuna looks like. I'd like Aonishiki to keep coming up and get the rope, so Onosato can have some real competition for the yusho in future bashos (yes I know Hoshoryu has Onosato's number head-to-head, but that counts for nought if one of them comes into senshuraku with 14 wins and the other one 11)

They literally JUST had a playoff, after Hoshoryu led the majority of the race, and Onosato got a fusen win.

I completely get that Onosato is unquestionably the more consistently dominant of the two but I don't get where all this dismissal of Hoshoryu as a yokozuna rival comes from on this forum. 

[Asashosakari]

Ms1-Ms4 against not Ms1-Ms4 so far:

Basho	Day	Rikishi 1				Kimarite		Rikishi 2
		Rank	Shikona	Result				Rank	Shikona	Result
2025.11	1	Ms1w	Kyokukaiyu	0-1 (2-2)		oshidashi		J14w	Wakanosho	1-0 (3-4)
2025.11	2	Ms1e	Takakento	0-2 (1-2)		yorikiri		J14e	Shiden	1-1 (2-4)
2025.11	3	Ms4e	Daiamami	0-2 (0-4)		oshidashi		Ms5e	Kazuto	1-1 (2-1)
2025.11	3	Ms2e	Otsuji	1-1 (1-3)		oshidashi		J13w	Fujiryoga	3-0 (7-0)
2025.11	5	Ms3w	Dewanoryu	2-1 (3-1)		kotenage		Ms5w	Seihakuho	3-0
2025.11	6	Ms4w	Miyanokaze	1-2 (1-3)		hatakikomi		Ms5e	Kazuto	2-1
2025.11	6	Ms4e	Daiamami	0-3 (0-4)		hikkake		Ms7w	Hananoumi	1-2 (1-3)
2025.11	7	Ms2e	Otsuji	1-3		yorikiri		Ms6w	Yoshii	2-2

Edited November 15 by Asashosakari

[dingo]

4 hours ago, Godango said:

They literally JUST had a playoff, after Hoshoryu led the majority of the race, and Onosato got a fusen win.

I completely get that Onosato is unquestionably the more consistently dominant of the two but I don't get where all this dismissal of Hoshoryu as a yokozuna rival comes from on this forum. 

They're both relatively new yokozuna and Hoshoryu has just been unfortunate first to be injured soon after his promotion and then fall behind Onosato in the yusho count this year. So I suppose it's a reflection of both of their results this year, it's probably that simple. Of course Hoshoryu is a proper yokozuna rival as last basho showed. The intensity he brings to the dohyo is almost unparalleled and I for one hope he'll continue to rival Onosato for a long time. 

[Heather82Cs]

12 hours ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

BTW, as a general statement, we do realize that Onosato still has no room for error at this point, right? If Hoshoryu runs the table, the only way Onosato avoids their day 15 matchup being meaningful is if he does the same. Yes, he's gone 14-0 before, and he can do it again, but it's really hard. Someone will probably find a way to take him down. It's more up to Hoshoryu to steady the ship.

Thanks for reminding me once again that Nagoya was only a few months ago. 

[WAKATAKE]

Tamawashi will be going for makuuchi win #700 today!

[Leoben]

Re: Hoshoryu vs Onosato, I feel like the difference between them is that one of them has a 99.999 percentile physique while the other is average or slightly below average.

Being significantly stronger than every other wrestler on the banzuke means Onosato can get away with things others can't, and it also means his gameplan, what he needs to do to win, is much simpler. Generally speaking, if he manages to keep his opponent in front of him and/or get a half-decent belt grip he will win because his strength will carry him. Hoshoryu is the opposite, his physique is a neutral factor or a net negative in a lot of matches, so he has less room for mistakes. He has to do more things right, and those things are harder to do for him.

If these premises are true and we let the probabilities play out over months and years, one of our Yokozuna is going to be a lot more successful than the other because he's playing a higher percentage game all around.

Edited November 15 by Leoben

[Jyuunomori]

Takayasu would have beaten anybody else with his Sumo today, he looked super strong. But Aonishiki had other ideas. How he recovered? His legs are made of goddamn steel.

It was just an incredible day of Sumo today, probably not only the best day of this basho, but the best day of the whole year. So many great bouts.

[Jakusotsu]

9 minutes ago, Jyuunomori said:

Takayasu would have beaten anybody else with his Sumo today, he looked super strong.

But super slow as usual. That won't work against the youngsters anymore.

[dingo]

A lot of great bouts today! 

Chiyoshoma rightly recognised that Mitakeumi is there for picking and he did defeat the ex-ozeki with a quick tachiai aga strong yori. If things go well Chiyoshoma might be able to stay in makuuchi. Mitakeumi has to limit the damage, otherwise it might be precarious for him.

Tomokaze apparently hadn't faced Daieisho before, but he should still know better than start pulling soon after the tachiai. The only thing that move did was help him out of the dohyo faster.

Fujinokawa... every day he does something amazing. The frantic forward rush today and grabbing Tobizaru above the knee on the tawara to push him over and avoid falling down himself was incredible.

Yoshinofuji is having a great basho, just one loss so far. Can he play the part of the yusho dark horse this basho?

Aonishiki defended really well to stay in the bout against Takayasu until he managed to get an opening. Unfortunately for Takayasu the amount of young, strong rikishi is growing and while he's fighting really well, time is not on his side. 

Kotozakura doesn't seem to be in any kind of shape to reach even basic kachikoshi. After the yusho a year ago, this hasn't been his year at all. Hope he can restart anew next year and challenge the yokozuna as well as other strong newcomers. 

Tamawashi offered Hoshoryu one of the best challenges this basho. Awesome to see them going head to head so evenly. After separating, perhaps Tamawashi went forward a bit too early, allowing Hoshoryu to receive the attack and sneak in a grip that proved to be crucial. Nevertheless, it's amazing see Tamawashi fighting on that level. 

Ura caused Onosato some real trouble by going really low to avoid the yokozuna's strong pushes. He made it quite awkward for Onosato, and Ura wasn't too far from pulling off a surprise win. 

A lot of excitement still ahead, can't wait for tomorrow!

[Ryoshishokunin]

4 hours ago, Leoben said:

Re: Hoshoryu vs Onosato, I feel like the difference between them is that one of them has a 99.999 percentile physique while the other is average or slightly below average.

Being significantly stronger than every other wrestler on the banzuke means Onosato can get away with things others can't, and it also means his gameplan, what he needs to do to win, is much simpler. Generally speaking, if he manages to keep his opponent in front of him and/or get a half-decent belt grip he will win because his strength will carry him. Hoshoryu is the opposite, his physique is a neutral factor or a net negative in a lot of matches, so he has less room for mistakes. He has to do more things right, and those things are harder to do for him.

 If these premises are true and we let the probabilities play out over months and years, one of our Yokozuna is going to be a lot more successful than the other because he's playing a higher percentage game all around.

Except for two things: aging hits body before mind, and injuries.  Carrying extra weight is an injury risk, though low-effort wins are the opposite.  

[Kintamayama]

Stuff that happened today:

 An unusual incident occurred when a rikishi's mawashi loosened and slipped up quite high on his upper body. The shocking scene drew the attention of viewers, with comments like, "It's up to his chest," "That's nerve-wracking lol," and "What's going to happen?"This happened during a match between Makushita third-ranked Dewanoryuu  and Makushita 1 to Kyokukaiyuu . Dewanoryuu grabbed Kyokukayuu's rising mawashi, and the momentum caused the mawashi to slip significantly higher. As Dewanoryuu continued to hold on to the mawashi and brace himself, Kyokukaiyuu's mawashi gradually became looser... The rikishi continued to grapple for a long time, but Dewanoryuu's pressure drained Kyokukaiyuu's strength, and he was eventually defeated by yorikiri. What caught the attention of the viewers was the fate of the mawashi, which had become significantly loose... The match ended without the referee Kimura Zennosuke calling a wardrobe matta.

[Kintamayama]

More stuff that happened, but yesterday:

Atamifuji beat Ichiyamamoto today for his fifth win. Just before the match, Atamifuji tried to sprinkle salt in his hands, but found there was no salt in his hands and missed. He looked at his own hands and reacted with a surprised "What!?". The unexpected turn of events drew comments such as "All the salt is gone," "Such disappointing salt," and "I've never seen that before," while Atamifuji's indescribable reaction also drew a stream of reactions such as "Too cute," "Pure," and "A real angel." It happened during the final shikiri just before the start of the bout. Both rikishi had salt in their hands by the time limit. At the time, former Maegashira Ooiwato, who was commentating, said, "The way to counter  thrusting sumo is to go all out without any hesitation in the end. The type of rikishi that I hate to face the most is someone who goes all out, like Ichiyamamoto. It's easier to deal with a tachiai where the rikishi is hesitant. It would be great if Atamifuji could come forward with a tachiai that will steal the show." He then continued with a worried look, "It looks like (Atamifuji) is going to hesitate." As they were talking, Atamifuji had finished his routine and was supposed to be sprinkling the final salt.. but before sprinkling it on the dohyo, he had waved his hands left, right and forward, but there was no salt left in the box, so it ended up being an "air salt sprinkling". Atamifuji himself seemed surprised by the unexpected turn of events and looked down at his right hand, with an expression that was hard to describe. Ooiwato noticed this and couldn't help but comment, "He hesitated so much that when he tried to sprinkle salt, there was no salt in his hand (laughs). The salt is gone." At the much-anticipated bout, Atamifuji crouched first and put his hands down, while Ichiyamamoto struggled to crouch. Seeing this, Ooiwato muttered, "He's hesitating. That's dangerous." However, Atamifuji hit low, with his head down, and immediately thrust his right hand forward in one go. He didn't allow Ichiyamamoto to counterattack and won the match. This was Ichiyamamoto's third loss. Atamifuji had a clean win, but the attention of fans was focused on his "air salt sprinkling." In addition to comments such as "He's out of salt," "Such treacherous salt," and "I've never seen that before," there were also reactions such as "Too cute,"" and "A real angel." (ABEMA)

 

Edited November 15 by Kintamayama

[Octofuji]

2 hours ago, dingo said:

 Fujinokawa... every day he does something amazing. The frantic forward rush today and grabbing Tobizaru above the knee on the tawara to push him over and avoid falling down himself was incredible.

That was the best moment for me today, even with all the other superb bouts. I missed the knee grab, just looked like magic to me.

And still only 20 years old!

[Benihana]

Nobody:

Ura: I'M A BATTERING RAM, YOLO!

The perfect concluding bout for a day like that.

[Reonito]

14 hours ago, Godango said:

I completely get that Onosato is unquestionably the more consistently dominant of the two but I don't get where all this dismissal of Hoshoryu as a yokozuna rival comes from on this forum. 

Hoshoryu's absences undoubtedly play into it, but in the last 4 basho each completed, the score lines are Hoshoryu 13, 12, 12, 13 and Onosato 12, 14, 11, 13. Onosato has 3 yusho though, to Hoshoryu's 1.

[Reonito]

5 hours ago, dingo said:

Ura caused Onosato some real trouble by going really low to avoid the yokozuna's strong pushes. He made it quite awkward for Onosato, and Ura wasn't too far from pulling off a surprise win. 

I wonder if Aonishiki was taking notes.

[Heather82Cs]

51 minutes ago, Benihana said:

Nobody:

Ura: I'M A BATTERING RAM, YOLO!

The perfect concluding bout for a day like that.

It may be the only viable strategy against that yokozuna. You either destroy his insides, or make him risk messing up with the chonmage.

[Sumo Spiffy]

1 hour ago, Reonito said:

I wonder if Aonishiki was taking notes.

I don't think Aonishiki can get that low. Ura gets as low as anyone is realistically capable of getting, and Aonishiki is 7 cm taller. He's in Onosato's pushing sweet spot.

[Bunbukuchagama]

1 hour ago, Reonito said:

Hoshoryu's absences undoubtedly play into it, but in the last 4 basho each completed, the score lines are Hoshoryu 13, 12, 12, 13 and Onosato 12, 14, 11, 13. Onosato has 3 yusho though, to Hoshoryu's 1.

The sample size is still small, but so far we have:

Onosato's Yokozuna ceiling: 13-2 Y Onosato's Yokozuna floor: 11-4 J

Hoshoryu's Yokozuna ceiling: 13-2 D Hoshoryu's Yokozuna floor: 1-4-10

If we extend the sample size to Ozeki and below, things get better for Hoshoryu, but not by much; also, their similar age should not  make us ignore Hoshoryu's massive experience advantage.

In view of the above, I refuse to accept the "two young promising Yokozuna" narrative; they are clearly on different levels in terms of talent and achievement. 

[Bunbukuchagama]

5 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

I don't think Aonishiki can get that low. Ura gets as low as anyone is realistically capable of getting, and Aonishiki is 7 cm taller. He's in Onosato's pushing sweet spot.

Getting lower makes you easier to slap down, and Onosato is known to do so. 

[Reonito]

32 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

The sample size is still small, but so far we have:

Onosato's Yokozuna ceiling: 13-2 Y Onosato's Yokozuna floor: 11-4 J

Hoshoryu's Yokozuna ceiling: 13-2 D Hoshoryu's Yokozuna floor: 1-4-10

I mean, if you count absences, Hakuho's "Yokozuna floor" was 0-0-15 

[Bunbukuchagama]

1 minute ago, Reonito said:

I mean, if you count absences, Hakuho's "Yokozuna floor" was 0-0-15 

I've just checked: he first went kyujo in his 48th(?) Yokozuna basho. 

Hoshoryu did it in his first. 

[Reonito]

2 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

I've just checked: he first went kyujo in his 48th(?) Yokozuna basho. 

Hoshoryu did it in his first. 

Okay, sub in Chiyonofuji and his 1-2-12 "floor."

Seriously though, I'd separate the frequency of being injured from performance when fit to fight, though obviously both are factors in the overall career success.

[Bunbukuchagama]

1 minute ago, Reonito said:

I'd separate the frequency of being injured from performance when fit to fight, though obviously both are factors in the overall career success.

Kisenosato would make a fine Yokozuna if he was healthy. 

[Reonito]

23 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Kisenosato would make a fine Yokozuna if he was healthy. 

All sorts of career trajectories out there, we'll only know which ones our two current yokozuna are on with the passage of time. Personally, I'd love to see both compete at high fitness as often as possible and for as long as possible.