Kyushu 2025 discussion (results)

[RabidJohn]

15 minutes ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

And if I recall, isn't the dead body rule only supposed to apply when one of the rikishi is falling onto/over the other?  

No, it applies when one of the rikishi is in an unrecoverable position, like going backwards in the air with no chance of landing back inside the tawara.

Aonishiki would have been much better off not jumping at all. He seems to be a quick learner, so I don't expect he'll make that mistake again.

[Sumo Spiffy]

2 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Aonishiki would have been much better off not jumping at all. He seems to be a quick learner, so I don't expect he'll make that mistake again.

If he hadn't jumped, he might not have any knees left. He made a nice throw attempt, but his options were either jump away or get landed on by Onosato's entire upper body. Survival instinct takes over there. 

Watching it again in slow-mo, that also starts looking like why they may not have bothered with a mono-ii. We can go over the fine details of what should count as being down first, but at full speed, it looks like Aonishiki fails a throw, gets shoved out, and makes the touch look questionable by jumping. All of that points towards Onosato being the winner. I'm not saying it wasn't close enough to warrant a mono-ii, but I do think Aonishiki and his coach have the right idea—it's going to be better long-term to find ways not to end up in that position rather than be grumpy about not getting the call or a review.

And yeah, the JSA wouldn't like dissent. I know that, you know that, they know that. I'm saying it doesn't matter. Even if the JSA didn't give a shit, accepting the call, and more importantly the fact these types of calls are not going to go their way very often if Aonishiki's always the one flying backwards, is a smarter approach. 

[apraxin]

2 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

No, it applies when one of the rikishi is in an unrecoverable position, like going backwards in the air with no chance of landing back inside the tawara.

I feel a bit silly asking this given how long as I've been watching sumo, but has this always been the shinitai interpretation or has it only come into vogue more recently? 

I could almost swear that back in the Asashoryu/Hakuho era it was only applied to cases where, say, someone had been involuntarily flipped by their opponent and was moving through the air without control of their body, but happened to touch down/out second, and that a proactive jump along the lines of what Aonishiki did here would be considered a deliberate if last-ditch action to ensure his opponent touched down first, and so it wouldn't matter whether his feet ultimately landed inside or outside the tawara.

Am I just getting senile? 

Edited November 22 by apraxin

[Bunbukuchagama]

[Reonito]

1 hour ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

I'm not saying it wasn't close enough to warrant a mono-ii, but I do think Aonishiki and his coach have the right idea—it's going to be better long-term to find ways not to end up in that position rather than be grumpy about not getting the call or a review.

I mean, and see the pic immediately above, you can both acknowledge that you had to rely on a high-risk move that won't work very often AND be grumpy that you didn't get the call on this occasion when it arguably did work. The latter doesn't preclude continuing to work on a better strategy going forward.

[Sakura]

39 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Circling the feet doesn't change the fact that they don't seem to call the top of the foot touching down as a loss (I remember just one instance of it and it caused a stir on the forum). It may be a rule on paper, but it's not a rule in practice. It's like having a law still on the books (such as all adult men being required to practice archery) that isn't enforced. Officially still the law, but clearly not the law in the way it is not-enforced.

[Bunbukuchagama]

2 minutes ago, Sakura said:

Circling the feet doesn't change the fact that they don't seem to call the top of the foot touching down as a loss (I remember just one instance of it and it caused a stir on the forum). It may be a rule on paper, but it's not a rule in practice. It's like having a law still on the books (such as all adult men being required to practice archery) that isn't enforced. Officially still the law, but clearly not the law in the way it is not-enforced.

Apart from the wrong side of the foot: whose position seems more unrecoverable at this moment?

[Sakura]

1 minute ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Apart from the wrong side of the foot: whose position seems more unrecoverable at this moment?

The first screen shot shown, with Aonishiki flying out of the ring, had me thinking 'what's all the commotion, Aonishiki clearly lost'. So, there is some danger in just posting screenshots. As far as the one you posted it seems clear to me that Aonishiki is not in a stable position (neither is Onosato). Given that, I don't think 'more unrecoverable' is a deciding factor - it's about what happens next.

[Bunbukuchagama]

Just now, Sakura said:

The first screen shot shown, with Aonishiki flying out of the ring, had me thinking 'what's all the commotion, Aonishiki clearly lost'. So, there is some danger in just posting screenshots. As far as the one you posted it seems clear to me that Aonishiki is not in a stable position (neither is Onosato). Given that, I don't think 'more unrecoverable' is a deciding factor - it's about what happens next.

This is why I dislike the whole "dead body" thing so much: every desperate last falling oshidashi push, every step-back hatakikomi at the edge, and almost every throw ends up in the rikishi attempting it falling on the floor or stepping outside the dohyo; essentially, their position becomes unrecoverable the moment they go for that move, it's all or nothing at that point. They are awarded the win only because their opponent falls or steps out first - or is deemed "dead" before they become dead themselves, which is a very subjective call. 

In this particular case, we would need to conduct frame by frame analysis trying to determine when exactly one of them becomes "dead"; instead of doing so, the shimpan just said "screw it" and kept sitting down. 

[Tochinofuji]

4 hours ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

... 
And if I recall, isn't the dead body rule only supposed to apply when one of the rikishi is falling onto/over the other?  
... 

You might be thinking of the kabai-te (庇い手) element of the dead body rule, where if the "live" wrestler touches a hand down first to prevent injury to the "dead" wrestler (assumably by falling onto them), they are still declared the victor. Or at least that is my mediocre understanding of the rules! 

[Yamanashi]

Onosato vs Aonishiki: I have no problem with the call (although the flipped toe thing was difficult to ignore).  I mean, how would it look to see Aonishiki completely airborne outside the dohyo and then decree: "Onosato lost because he touched down first"?

[Jakusotsu]

1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

I mean, how would it look to see Aonishiki completely airborne outside the dohyo and then decree: "Onosato lost because he touched down first"?

That's what torinaoshi is for.

[Akinomaki]

4 hours ago, Sakura said:

Circling the feet doesn't change the fact that they don't seem to call the top of the foot touching down as a loss (I remember just one instance of it and it caused a stir on the forum). It may be a rule on paper, but it's not a rule in practice. It's like having a law still on the books (such as all adult men being required to practice archery) that isn't enforced. Officially still the law, but clearly not the law in the way it is not-enforced.

It's a rule and it is enforced occasionally, which is the reason for the stir on the forum, the complete inconsistency 

- Similar to the hands down rule

Edited November 22 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki]

Terunofuji on NHK immediately suggested that Onosato has some injury.

[warusawa]

Onosato was grimacing big time after the bout. Perked up when Aonishiki smoked Hoshoryu.

[Kintamayama]

The shinpan department decided to hold a meeting regarding Aonishiki's promotion to ozeki on the afternoon of the final day of the tournament. Takadagawa, the head of the shinpanbu  revealed that a meeting regarding promotion would be held, but did not reveal details about the current direction, such as whether he would be promoted if he won, or whether it would be postponed if he lost the main bout on the final day, saying, "This is not something we should be talking about now."

Edited November 22 by Kintamayama

[Heather82Cs]

6 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

The shinpan department decided to hold a meeting regarding Aonishiki's promotion to ozeki on the afternoon of the final day of the tournament. Takadagawa, the head of the shinpanbu  revealed that a meeting regarding promotion would be held, but did not reveal details about the current direction, such as whether he would be promoted if he won, or whether it would be postponed if he lost the main bout on the final day, saying, "This is not something we should be talking about now."

Good job today, both ozeki defeating the yokozuna.

Edited November 22 by Heather82Cs

[RabidJohn]

Kotozakura is as unpredictable as Shodai - a couple of days ago he didn't look capable of a KK, ffs!

Aonishiki getting his 11th (and 33rd) win against a yokozuna is great optics, as is remaining in the yusho race throughout the basho, and the fact that he will end with the same score as one of the yokozuna. If it were down to me, that would be an undeniable case. Takadagawa blabbing about a meeting is a very encouraging sign.

But I've got no idea what part Kotozakura will play tomorrow...

[Gospodin]

I can understand yesterday's non-call for a mono-ii. But today - Yoshinofuji vs Ichiyamamoto...boys.  Since the shimpan obviously held a collective nap, here one of the rikishi at ring side should have raised his hand.

[hakutorizakura]

7 minutes ago, Gospodin said:

Since the shimpan obviously held a collective nap, here one of the rikishi at ring side should have raised his hand.

That action is reserved for Hakuho only 

[ViscountessNivlac]

I was pulling for a three-way playoff but I'm happy to see Kotozakura hold rank. I can't imagine he'll manage against Aonishiki tomorrow, and if Onosato hurt himself today then I can't see him beating Hoshoryu. Considering how quickly Aonishiki disposed of the yokozuna today...

[Jyuunomori]

Aonishiki's career stats are a sight to behold. This guy had terrible basho of 10-5 record. Tsk tsk...

Might as well retire already.

Edited November 22 by Jyuunomori

[Benihana]

If Aonishiki beats Kotozakura, what i expect him to do, we will have a playoff. That should be enough to make promotion undeniable, even if he doesn't take the yusho.

On day 14 of 2024.09 Onosato had 5 makuuchi basho, 56 wins, 1 JY and 2Y under his belt. Aonishiki is now at 5 makuuchi basho, 55 wins, 1JY. Yes, that's 2Y less, but since Onosato lost the last bout of 2024.09, Aonishiki can match the 56 wins and probably add a JY or even a Y. Those numbers are insane.

Judging just the pure talent, an Onosato-sized Aonishiki is almost a frightening thought.

Et tu Ura?  Lately he seems to be much more confident - if that's the right expression - in his own abilities, more forward going, almost aggressive. I like it and it shows. His last KK from the meatgrinder was exactly 2 years ago. This will be his 5th meatgrinder KK in total, albeit even one more win would not be enough for a second Komusubi promotion.Still he beat 2 Komusubi, 1 Sekiwake, 1 Ozeki and at least troubled 1 Yokozuna.

[RabidJohn]

1 hour ago, hakutorizakura said:

That action is reserved for Hakuho only 

He might have been the only one to do it recently, but any rikishi sitting ringside can call a mono-ii. As I recall, Hakuho correctly pointed out a hair-pull everyone else had missed.

45 minutes ago, Benihana said:

Et tu Ura?  Lately he seems to be much more confident - if that's the right expression - in his own abilities, more forward going, almost aggressive. I like it and it shows. His last KK from the meatgrinder was exactly 2 years ago. This will be his 5th meatgrinder KK in total, albeit even one more win would not be enough for a second Komusubi promotion.Still he beat 2 Komusubi, 1 Sekiwake, 1 Ozeki and at least troubled 1 Yokozuna.

He has been a lot less tricksy and much more conventional for a few basho now. You're right: it really suits him.

[Seseragi]

Been enjoying the Tokihayate we've seen this basho. He's really had his weetabix!