Nagoya 2025 discussion (results)

[Katooshu]

Also, to vent as a biased Onosato fan, it gives me a headache how many people are yet again claiming he's been found out and will struggle to win tournaments going forward. This happened when he went 9-6 after his first yusho, when he went 9-6/10-5 after his 2nd, and now when he's at 10-4 after his 3rd and 4th. The standard for him is that if he doesn't win a tournament, he's been solved and things just won't be the same for him. It's as if there is no awareness that results for virtually any rikishi, even if they are a fantastic competitor, will have ups and downs and then ups again. And the yokozuna debut is often one of those downs. You really are only as good as your last basho (or even your last match) in the eyes of many observers... 

Maybe to avoid frustration I should only read this forum and some of the more well-educated Discords from now on lol.

Edited July 26 by Katooshu

[RabidJohn]

37 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

About Kotoshoho: not only a jun-yusho in the past, he was newcomer of the year when he entered makuuchi

I had higher expectations for him than for Kotonowaka (as was), but then he got that knee injury and turned into a mid-low maegashira elevator rikishi. 
But I also remember Takayasu being an elevator rikishi who couldn't string KK together for years until he could, and then he quickly rose to ozeki.
This basho may be another blip on Kotoshoho's record, like his JY, or maybe he's really turned a corner. We'll know by the end of the year.

Normally I'm all for a play-off because it's more sumo, but for some contrary reason I'd like to see a clear winner this time. That means I want to see Kotoshoho beat Aonishiki tomorrow, which is a startlingly unexpected outcome to the basho for me.

[RabidJohn]

11 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

Maybe to avoid frustration I should only read this forum and some of the more well-educated Discords from now on lol.

Maybe? Definitely! Masochism is not healthy.

[MrGrumpyGills]

I wish the best of luck to the 3 guys in the Makuuchi yusho race - each would be well deserving of the yusho and no matter what happens IMO it's going to be a great ending to a pretty exciting basho.

In other news, if Mita (Futagoyama) loses tomorrow and Daiseizan and Kotokuzan both win, we'll have a 3 way-playoff in Juryo. Possible first yusho for Mita.

[maglor]

2 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Not fighting the underperforming sanyaku is not the problem, if Kotoshoho gets the yusho. He defeated the yokozuna, a strong sekiwake and the best komusubi. He won against Kusano and with a win over Aonishiki tomorrow, he would have beaten any strong opponent in the basho, execept the pudding - not pairing him with the Atami one is the real problem this basho.

Edit: sorry to forget the iron man, and not fighting Tamawashi

it's completely inconceivable to you that Wakatakakage or Abi would have beaten Kotoshoho?

I don't understand why everytime some lower Maegashira has a good run and beats a few sanyaku we start talking as if he would have gone 13-2 against a joi schedule as well.

He's benefited by a weak schedule even by the standards of lower Maegashira contenders, and has done well enough that he's in the Day 15 lead because of it. Good for him that's a hard thing to do; it doesn't mean he's actually performed better this basho than Aonishiki has.

[maglor]

1 hour ago, Katooshu said:

Also, to vent as a biased Onosato fan, it gives me a headache how many people are yet again claiming he's been found out and will struggle to win tournaments going forward. This happened when he went 9-6 after his first yusho, when he went 9-6/10-5 after his 2nd, and now when he's at 10-4 after his 3rd and 4th. The standard for him is that if he doesn't win a tournament, he's been solved and things just won't be the same for him. It's as if there is no awareness that results for virtually any rikishi, even if they are a fantastic competitor, will have ups and downs and then ups again. And the yokozuna debut is often one of those downs. You really are only as good as your last basho (or even your last match) in the eyes of many observers... 

Maybe to avoid frustration I should only read this forum and some of the more well-educated Discords from now on lol.

A lot of it is Hoshoryu fans trying to pretend that 1-3 is somehow better than 10-4

[Akinomaki]

1 hour ago, maglor said:

A lot of it is Hoshoryu fans trying to pretend that 1-3 is somehow better than 10-4

Wrong comparison: 5-5-5 with 3 kinboshi better than 10-4 with 4

[Akinomaki]

1 hour ago, maglor said:

it's completely inconceivable to you that Wakatakakage or Abi would have beaten Kotoshoho?

it's completely inconceivable to you that I mainly use sarcasm?

Quote

He's benefited by a weak schedule even by the standards of lower Maegashira contenders, and has done well enough that he's in the Day 15 lead because of it. Good for him that's a hard thing to do; it doesn't mean he's actually performed better this basho than Aonishiki has.

Weak schedule: a weak yokozuna, a weak sekiwake and a weak komusubi - weak, because this m15 defeated them all, while Aonishiki lost to 2 of them.

I don't know why people soon switch to extremes for every other win: after most didn't think about it at first, suddenly all of them switch to Aonishiki for granted yusho and now with the mere chance to Kotoshoho - first he has to beat Aonishiki, and I doubt he will. Playoff with Kusano included is what I expect. If he beats Aonishiki in the first bout, Kotoshoho has a yusho with a splendid set of opponents he all defeated, and not much worse, if he wins the playoff

[Akinomaki]

Sansho look easy this basho, another ginosho for Aonishiki, the expected newcomer kantosho for Kusano, kantosho for Kotoshoho and shukunsho for the yusho winner. Another possibility, straight shukunsho for Kotoshoho and kantosho, if he wins the bout.

Fujinokawa with a win has 10, which is now again the standard to guarantee the newcomer kantosho.

I really would like to see a kantosho for Tamawashi, at least on condition of win - like Aminishiki got one for kachikoshi as dai-veteran makuuchi returner, he should get one for 10/11 wins with kinboshi at age 40.

Will Atami-pudding have a conditional kantosho tomorrow? The sansho comittee will definetely discuss it, as maybe as (sole) leader in the jobansen (d1-5) and the chubansen (d6-10), a kantosho for Ichiyamamoto if he wins, ), but the latter will get no vote in favour and the first likely not a majority.

[Akinomaki]

Kotoshoho did the right thing: he lost 2 early on and wasn't in the lead till after day 11. Kachikoshi on day 10, the earliest possible bout against sanyaku would have been on day 11, but there were others more deserving of such a bout  - longer in the lead, only already kachikoshi Ichiyamamoto got one -  and at the time of torikumi making, Kotoshoho had not yet kachikoshi. From day 12 on, he got the strongest of opponents.

Edited July 26 by Akinomaki

[Sakura]

5 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Also, to vent as a biased Onosato fan, 

I remember when Onosato was an over-hyped University grad because he lost his first bout and didn't get promoted to Juryo after his first basho, unlike Hakuoho.

[maglor]

There exists a mistaken belief that Onosato lacks some sort of skill that is important to being good at sumo.

In reality the only skill that matters in sumo is being big and strong and mobile. Everything else is just tricks and tricks are for kids.

[Yamanashi]

17 minutes ago, maglor said:

and tricks are for kids.

[dingo]

Another exciting day setting an almost perfect scene fir the senshuraku. 

Kusano found the exact right tactics against Aonishiki, not stopping for a moment and not letting Aonishiki settle in to gather his thoughts for a tricky throw. Very well executed sumo. 

Sometimes I look at Takayasu and weep, because if not for his unfortunately timed injury he would still be ozeki. He definitely has ozeki sumo and poise in him until this day. The way he dumped Atamifuji and stood there unmoved just screams "this is an ozeki" to me. I mean he still is an honorary ozeki in my mind. 

Kotoshoho is just in the zone this basho. The way he went today from tachiai to grip battle to feint/pull to immediate mawashi grab to send Kirishima out was very sharp. I don't want to jinx anything but he looks like the yusho favourite, not least because he's in the lead  Akinomaki's reasoning sounds very logical as well, but I feel Kotoshoho has the upper hand. 

After his win, Onosato looked relieved more than anything, having gotten his double digits with a strong performance today. Tomorrow should be easy for him, facing a kachikoshi Kotozakura who has not much to fight for. 

[Reonito]

11 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

Even though Tamawashi is out of the race, hope they give him a shukun-sho if he gets double digits

It would be absolute robbery if they again didn't give him a prize.

[Kintamayama]

Nobody is mentioning the "APTY syndrome (After Promotion to Yokozuna)". Many mentions of the APTY syndrome whaich I might have missed. I shall expand on the excellent observations of my esteemed colleagues. As in hundreds of functions, parties and meets and greets expected from the new top guy. It was written and talked about that his training was insufficient. How many new Yokozuna went on to get a yusho in their first basho as a Yokozuna? Three? Four? He'll be back with a vengeance next basho. Minimum 13-2.

The great Hakuhou- 11-4

Akebono - 10-5

Sonnybono- was never a Yokozuna

Chiyonofuji - 1-2-12

Taihou- 13-2 yusho

Asashouryuu -  10-5

Kakuryuu -  9-6

Terunofuji - 13-2 yusho

Kisenosato - 13-2 yusho, never completed a basho after that

Musashimaru - 12-3

Takanohana - 13-2 yusho

Wakanohana - 10-5, never yusho'ed after promotion

To name a few famous ones

Edited July 26 by Kintamayama

[I am the Yokozuna]

I think the occasion got to Aonishiki today, he looked unsure of what to do. Not to take anything away from Kusano, but Aonishiki was far too slow and visibly stressed for me.
By the way, is Kusano one of ex-Hakuho’s recruits?

The bout of the day, for me, was Takayasu vs. Atamifuji. Takayasu survived a series of nodowa attacks, morozashi, and being pushed to the tawara, only to execute a powerful uwatenage that would have made Hakuho proud. Where did he got that from?

Kirishima simply didn’t show up today, again. With 10 wins still in reach, a return to ozeki could have been on the table next tournament, so this is was such a missed opportunity.

I’ve never been particularly fond of Kotozakura II due to his limited technical skills, but that throw today was immense and executed to perfection. Still, how was that not ruled a kotehineri as he had two arms locked into Hidenoumi's arms?

Tomorrow, regardless of the outcome, we’re guaranteed a new yusho winner. It’s been a great basho, let’s hope for a ketteisen, or even a tomoesen, which would be the second this year, right? So great times ot be a sumo fan, nothing like the times when by the day 9 all was settled. 

[Sakura]

2 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Kisenosato - 13-2 yusho, never completed a basho after that

He completed one basho after that, when he managed to scrape up a 10-5.

[Reonito]

7 hours ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Well... Now when Kotoshoho yusho is becoming a reality, we should discuss the real mistake of the torikumi committee: why didn't they throw him to sanyaku earlier? I remember the O-gang getting sent all the way up on day 8 or 9 several basho ago; they were probably afraid of Onosato's possible low-rank yusho. But with Kotoshoho, they just didn't take him seriously till it was too late...

Who else was he going to fight? Hoshoryu is out, Kotozakura is in his stable, Daieisho is out, and Oshoma is not a credible opponent. So it's just Wakatakakage...

[RabidJohn]

33 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Nobody is mentioning the "APTY syndrome (After Promotion to Yokozuna)". As in hundreds of functions, parties and meets and greets expected from the new top guy.

I didn't have a snazzy acronym for it, but I did mention it in this thread yesterday. I'm saddened that you consider me nobody...

I'd quote myself, but the forum does weird things when I try to multi-quote from previous pages.

I'm fairly sure Akinomaki's been counting on it for his predictions since the start of the tournament, too.

[Bunbukuchagama]

2 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

the earliest possible bout against sanyaku would have been on day 11

Did he need to get Takanosho on that day? On Day 12, he got the week 2 version of Takayasu, then he beat the Yokozuna (yay, the 4th kinboshi of the yusho!), then Kirishima (OK), and finally Aonishiki on senshuraku. 

Actually, Aonishiki  makes way less sense after the Day 14; the committee's main focus should have been on making sure his (very probable now) yusho would end up perceived as earned rather than cheap and lucky. With that in mind, WTK would have been a better choice because "he defeated another Sekiwake" sounds way more significant than "he beat a Maegashira 1 with a good record". Why did they not do it? I suspect they were lazy and didn't want to change the torikumi they prepared to in advance (but why wait for the results then). Also, they possibly want to minimize the chance of a playoff. In any case, Kotoshoho's yusho will leave a bad aftertaste in my mouth. 

[Karusoni]

45 minutes ago, I am the Yokozuna said:

By the way, is Kusano one of ex-Hakuho’s recruits?

Yes. The transference to Isegahama was right before his debut in May 2024, hence he never having fought as a Miyagino-beya member officially. 

[Sumo Spiffy]

1 hour ago, Reonito said:

Who else was he going to fight? Hoshoryu is out, Kotozakura is in his stable, Daieisho is out, and Oshoma is not a credible opponent. So it's just Wakatakakage...

I'm glad you said it.

Also, for anyone genuinely confused as to why Kotoshoho's schedule looks the way it does—the standard method for a while now has been to let maegashira contenders get to eight wins, then stick them against the san'yaku. Since the schedule for day X + 1 gets made before matches on day X, that means someone with eight wins can hit nine against another maegashira before the san'yaku comes calling. That's precisely what happened here. When Kotoshoho was scheduled against Takanosho, Koto was 7-2 and Taka was 6-3. That's an extremely reasonable matchup. Then he got three san'yaku opponents.

To suggest his schedule was unnecessarily easy—as in, the schedule-makers should have made it harder—is results-oriented thinking. Koto was scheduled the same way everyone else in his position normally would be. The san'yaku is expected to be a roadblock for maegashira contenders fighting above their weight. Kusano was in the same position. Ichiyamamoto was in the same position. Atamifuji had an extra loss, but slid into the same position a day later. But Koto's the only one who won all his san'yaku matches. And now he's the guy who controls his own fate.

All that being said: yes, you can find counter-examples where guys in lower maegashira were scheduled against the san'yaku before they reached eight wins. But in those cases, the wrestlers had either one loss or no losses. If they have two, the schedule makers wait until they get to eight wins. I don't know exactly why they draw that line, but it's been standard practice for some time. Koto hasn't backed into anything.

As for fighting Aonishiki instead of Wakatakakage... there's no outcome where him against Waka and Aonishiki against ??? (Atamifuji?) looks good. If he wins, he did it without fighting someone who could catch him, with the opportunity to do so right there. If he loses and it goes to any sort of playoff, then best case is we end up with a "worthy" champion, but if Aonishiki makes that playoff, then he had to back into it by letting someone else beat Koto rather than do it himself. And if they all lose and Koto wins anyway, that just feels shitty. It's way more fun when the champ wins on the last day.

1 hour ago, dingo said:

Kotoshoho is just in the zone this basho. The way he went today from tachiai to grip battle to feint/pull to immediate mawashi grab to send Kirishima out was very sharp. I don't want to jinx anything but he looks like the yusho favourite, not least because he's in the lead  Akinomaki's reasoning sounds very logical as well, but I feel Kotoshoho has the upper hand. 

Dude's bigger and stronger than he used to be. Not that he isn't in the zone, but he used to look physically overmatched; now he's the beatdown, so to speak. Health permitting (and that is a huge question mark until proven otherwise), we should expect his sumo to look more like this going forward.

Edited July 26 by Sumo Spiffy

[Kishinoyama]

1 hour ago, maglor said:

In reality the only skill that matters in sumo is being big and strong and mobile. Everything else is just tricks and tricks are for kids.

Kisenosato was so close to Yokozuna promotion on multiple occasions. As you mentioned above, he (like Onosato) was big, strong and in my opinion, mobile enough. The pressure of being the first Japanese yokozuna since Wakanohana was tremendous and he always seemed to come up short. Of course he finally did make it. My point is that their has to be a mental "skill" to go along with the physical skill. Onosato seems to have that mental "skill" from the start. Maybe he got it from his coaches growing up, his current "coach" Kisenosato or maybe he always had it.

I expected that Onosato would have a let down after his promotion. It seems to happen to most new Yokozuna. I think a healthy Onosato will easily reach 20 yusho. Is their a poll on this like their was with Terunofuji? I don't check the poll section.

Onosato supporters on the forum had better get used to negativity from people that don't care for him. Us Hakuho supporters had to deal with it for more than ten years. Yes, I know that Hakuho was a yokozuna for more than ten years but it seems the negativity towards him wasn't as strong until after Asashoryu decided to punch a restaurant employee and "retire". Hakuho then became public enemy number one to some here on the forum. 

Anyway, no matter what happens tomorrow, I will be happy. I like all three of the guys that still have a chance. 

Edited July 26 by Kishinoyama

[Reonito]

7 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Also, to vent as a biased Onosato fan, it gives me a headache how many people are yet again claiming he's been found out and will struggle to win tournaments going forward. This happened when he went 9-6 after his first yusho, when he went 9-6/10-5 after his 2nd, and now when he's at 10-4 after his 3rd and 4th.

What a chump, why couldn't he get off to a start like the last dominant Yokozuna we had, Hakuho.