Natsu 2025 discussion (results)

[dingo]

Well, with Onosato's win and Hoshoryu's loss surely we've got a new yokozuna!? The worst Onosato can end up is a doten yusho and that should be enough for the kyokai. Though something must go very wrong for Onosato to lose each of his last three bouts. I think he'll decide the case tomorrow since Kotozakura has been firmly below par this basho. 

I did have a feeling Kirishima could give serious trouble for Hoshoryu this basho, and would you look at the result. Maybe having another peer at his rank will spur Hoshoryu on more. 

Oho was totally asleep at the tachiai, which he definitely can't afford to do against Hiradoumi. A makekoshi and another basho where his potential showed only a few flashes at the beginning. But by defeating Hoshoryu he has at least played a role in the yusho. 

[warusawa]

Kirishima threw the Nephew out of the dohyo yokozuna-style. 

[Jakusotsu]

Perfect script would be Daieisho's winning out for a double promotion.

[Hankegami]

27 minutes ago, dingo said:

Well, with Onosato's win and Hoshoryu's loss surely we've got a new yokozuna!? The worst Onosato can end up is a doten yusho and that should be enough for the kyokai. Though something must go very wrong for Onosato to lose each of his last three bouts. I think he'll decide the case tomorrow since Kotozakura has been firmly below par this basho. 

I can actually see the NSK withholding his promotion if Onosato really ends up with a doten - exactly because it would be evidence for a wildly bad collapse. Even a 12-3Y could be problematic possibly - although the last time they denied promotion after a back-to-back was in 1950 (Chiyonoyama believed too young for Yokozuna responsibilities). Anyway, I wholeheartedly concur that as soon as Onosato hits 13 wins it's a done deal. Back-to-back also with a "respectable" yusho on top of that (in this economy!).

I wouldn't sleep on Kotozakura, though. He's having his best basho since his Kyushu yusho, and he looks more convincing than in his first days of this tournament. He's still very passive, but that's part of his game - his father and coach is that Kotonowaka, after all. Now, I don't mean he will actually win, but he has a respectable 4-4 H2H against Onosato and is the most likely to handle Onosato a loss after Hoshoryu himself . Anyway, if Onosato wins there's the yusho and the rope both awaiting for him.

Edited May 22 by Hankegami

[Yamanashi]

2 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Haven't you noticed? Onosato is invulnerable to jinxes.
The Ozeki Curse bounced off him and hit Kotozakura, just as he got a 14-1 yusho.
More impressively, Wajima's normally infallible Jinx of the Collegiate Rikishi has failed to score a hit on Onosato.

I was confident enough in my observations to state on day 6 that his yokozuna run looked unjinxably inevitable.
Sure enough, he's kept on winning.
QED

 

Well, if he isn't jinxed after this post, he is in fact unjinxable.

[Morty]

This is what you call a comprehensively positive response to a Tsuna run, and pretty clear Yokozuna style dominance. The opposite of most of the Tsuna runs we have seen for the last decade (with the exception of Terunofuji). Makes a nice change.

[Asashosakari]

3 hours ago, Hankegami said:

I believe it was an actual rule until the 1920s - I noticed it when I looked at the kinboshi records. When a Yokozuna was not confident in defeating an opponent, he sat out for the day to save his face. It wasn't listed as a fusen loss, however, but as a 'draw' of sort (white triangle marker). Actually, if I remember correctly it was a fusen, but was treated as a draw and therefore not as a win or loss. The 18th Yokozuna Ozutsu is infamous for abusing this rule late in his career. Both in Haru 1906 and Fuyu 1907, shortly before his retirement, he sat out every day of the basho - he didn't go kyujo, just sat out at the last moment every single day. This system also caused kinboshi to be even more spectacular in hindsight - because coming from an opponent the Yokozuna was actually confident to defeat.

Every single part of this is completely wrong.

• Kinboshi only began to be officially recognized in 1930.
• The concept of fusensho/pai was only established in 1926.
• The absences you're talking about weren't draws, they were simply that, absences. The difference to the fusen system is that they were scored as an absence for both rikishi. This also had nothing to do with yokozuna, but was the general system of handling absent rikishi.
• Ozutsu wasn't known for avoiding matches, but for stalemating his opponent with defensive sumo until the match was abandoned and scored as a draw.
• No other yokozuna did the thing you claimed they were doing, either.

Edited May 22 by Asashosakari

[Andreas21]

21 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Not to mention it's finally the clash of the ultrahyped. There was a time when many people didn't think Onosato would ever be ranked higher than Hakuoho.

It was here!

Btw, I was one of those who got it right. Sheer luck, of course.

[Hankegami]

2 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Every single part of this is completely wrong.

• Kinboshi only began to be officially recognized in 1930.
• The concept of fusensho/pai was only established in 1926.
• The absences you're talking about weren't draws, they were simply that, absences. The difference to the fusen system is that they were scored as an absence for both rikishi. This also had nothing to do with yokozuna, but was the general system of handling absent rikishi.
• Ozutsu wasn't known for avoiding matches, but for stalemating his opponent with defensive sumo until the match was abandoned and scored as a draw.
• No other yokozuna did the thing you claimed they were doing, either.

Thank you. I always appreciate your corrections greatly, although it's sometimes hard since you hold no punches in your answers.

As you certainly know, I take most of my data from English sources and I am consciously exposed to misleading conclusions. Anyway, I was aware that the fusen system was different back then, but the discussion concerned Yokozuna alone and I did not expend the topic on purpose. Back to English sources, Ozutsu's late career is there described as a quest to avoid defeats given his rank. I was specifically talking about his Haru 1906 (1-0-1-8d) and Fuyu 1907 (0-0-1-9d) scores, which are described as "sat out the 1907 second tournament" (English Wikipedia) although he was evidently expected to enter the tournament (in other cases older results just put sat out). My impression was reinforced by his page in the usually good sumorestling wikia, where it is reported: "However, former yokozuna Umegatani Totaro I had taught him that yokozuna must not be defeated, so he recorded many draws late in his career. In the May 1907 tournament, he drew in all of his nine bouts. He retired in the next tournament". My conclusions were that he sat out day by day without staying kyujo in the modern sense.

[code_number3]

Yokozuna Onosato confirmed if he wins tomorrow?

[Benevolance]

I am beginning to suspect that Onosato might be good at sumo. 

[Kaito]

6 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Among Sekitori, you mean...

I actually don't. Am I wrong?

[Gospodin]

I cannot remember a bout where a healthy Yokozuna looked so helpless and clueless what to do like Hoshoryu today. No resistance, no...fighting spirit.

[Gospodin]

2 hours ago, Benevolance said:

I am beginning to suspect that Onosato might be good at sumo. 

He might also be a good dancer, as was suspected here for his shisho . Fun aside, his footwork bears the handwriting of former Kisenosato, although he is not there yet.

[Jakusotsu]

2 hours ago, Kaito said:

I actually don't. Am I wrong?

I only watched the second half of Makushita and saw at least two mono-ii.

[BroadMeadow]

4 hours ago, Hankegami said:

...In the May 1907 tournament, he drew in all of his nine bouts. He retired in the next tournament". My conclusions were that he sat out day by day without staying kyujo in the modern sense.

Man, I remember that 1907 Basho like it was YESTERDAY. 

[Kaito]

44 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

I only watched the second half of Makushita and saw at least two mono-ii.

Fair enough. I was relying on 2nd hand information for the lower divisions. It did sound too good to be true

[Reonito]

15 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Playing devil's advocate: Kirishima and Hakuoho didn't have the same record when the torikumi was made.

That's fair, but in general, they moved up Hakuoho and Aonishiki unnecessarily early and fast. They should have fought each other, then maybe some joi guys doing well, not vaulted all the way up the torikumi starting on day 10.

[junsan]

7 hours ago, code_number3 said:

Yokozuna Onosato confirmed if he wins tomorrow?

Can't wait for him to thrill us with his riveting matches.

[Heather82Cs]

11 hours ago, Hankegami said:

Isegahama

Re: how the heya is doing, they are currently at 48% of wins: http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/topic/44873-heya-watch-natsu-basho-2025/?do=findComment&comment=537735

Buon finale di basho!

[Ripe]

9 hours ago, Hankegami said:

I can actually see the NSK withholding his promotion if Onosato really ends up with a doten - exactly because it would be evidence for a wildly bad collapse.

Especially if yusho goes to someone other then Hoshoryu or maybe Kirishima... anyone else winning it would probably made them not promoting him.

[Tsuchinoninjin]

I want to complain to no one about how ironic it is that I watch so little sumo when I’m in Japan compared to being elsewhere.

There’s never a tv available at nomikai

[Kishinoyama]

If Onosato loses three in a row then I will be winning the lottery and I don't even play the lottery. In other words, he is not losing three in a row.

[Bunbukuchagama]

11 hours ago, code_number3 said:

Yokozuna Onosato confirmed if he wins tomorrow?

Absolutely.

[hakutorizakura]

3 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I want to complain to no one about how ironic it is that I watch so little sumo when I’m in Japan compared to being elsewhere.

There’s never a tv available at nomikai

Aren't sumo hours a bit early for nomikai? You should watch first, then go nomikai