Asashouryuu Refused Keiko!

[Elenrian]

They were not very polite!!!! >(Applauding...) >:-P Moreover, they certainly could have improved themselves by fighting with the Yokozuna!! If they lose against him, they will not say they couldn't train with him!!! If I was in Asa'a shoes, I would be very angry, and I would have an argument with them!! ;-)

I think this is better to be "tsuriotoshied" at keiko than is the Hon-Basho!!! Well, this is Chiyotaikai and co's problem!

[Phelix]

Now, it seems that Asashoryu is a guy who injures the others, intentionally.

I can't believe it. He is brought up in very conservative and traditional Mongolian wrestling family. In Mongolian wrestling, injuring somebody intentionally is seen as a sin. I beleive it's same in sumo.

Takamisakari's injury was not intentional. Yes, Asa's tsuriotoshi was intentional. But, he probably want inflict Takamisakari a shame and not an injury.

Also, I never heard Asa injured a rikishi other than that of Takamisakari's one case.

Probably, many rikishis refuse keiko with Asashoryu not because of fear of injury but because of fear of being tsuriotoshied which would mean humiliated, ashamed and reported in press. Asa should stop using tsuriotoshi (insulting others) during keikos. And, I wish the other rikishi's take the keiko seriously and "give your all out".

Many times we heard oyokatas say that if you give your all out ...you are less injury prone. Is that not so?

Shiroikuma,

I like your insider views very much. You are a big assett to forum.

But, sometimes, I think you might be little bit poised by Naruto beya's gossip,envy and trash talks about Asa. Forgive me.

Yes, this was a demonstration against Asa. The oyakata would never have allowed such a thing otherwise. But whats most dangerous about his tsurio.? The risk of injury or the knowledge of humiliation?

I think I

[Ryukaze]

I totally have to agree with otokonoyama here! "If you wanna be the man you gotta beat the man"! and so far there isnt a soul out there who has shown any signs of stepping up to the Yokozuna, not a soul! No one! No one can hold a candle to this guys fire and intensity, He's the Mike Tyson of sumo right now! and until someone steps up to the plate to challenge him nothing is gonna change! Get used to it!

Oh puh-leeze, save the hyperbole. I know you're new to the forum, so I'd just like to mention that we have had approximately 872 verbal clashes between the pro- and anti-Asashoryu factions over the last couple of years, and most of us are way beyond the "get used to it!" stage. Your enthusiasm is admirable, but there's no need to get all in-your-face about it towards those who do not happen to share your opinion. Thanks for your consideration.

lol while I might be "New to the Forum" I'm hoping your not also taking that as my being "New to sumo" if so your'e mistaken brudda. And no I was not aware of the number of "verbal clashes" between those pro and anti - Asashoryu on this site. Either way my point simply is that until someone comes along who can equal the desire and amount of intensity that this guy competes with (instead of keiko boycotting), the question will continue to remain "Who's next"? lol - Ryu

Edited November 11, 2004 by Ryukaze

[aderechelsea]

i am sure the "injury possibility" is not as great as it is presented.A simple tsuriotoshi isn't more dangerous than a yoritaoshi or a whatever-nage ....

personally i find it a disgrace for these guys to refuse a yokozuna to train properly before a basho and i could even think they do it intentionaly to let him be under-keikoed for the basho ...

i believe they should try to avoid being tsuriotoshied in keiko by getting better and not by hiding ...

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Asa go to Hakkaku heya where the Sea Phoenix awaits you to get a proper keiko session.An uchigake is waiting there with your name on it..... ;-)

[Ivan Sergeyevich]

You reap what you sow.

[Ryukaze]

Word to kaiho! lol

[Phelix]

i am sure the "injury possibility" is not as great as it is presented.A simple tsuriotoshi isn't more dangerous than a yoritaoshi or a whatever-nage ....

personally i find it a disgrace for these guys to refuse a yokozuna to train properly before a basho and i could even think they do it intentionaly to let him be under-keikoed for the basho ...

i believe they should try to avoid being tsuriotoshied in keiko by getting better and not by hiding ...

.

.

.

Asa go to Hakkaku heya where the Sea Phoenix awaits you to get a proper keiko session.An uchigake is waiting there with your name on it..... ;-)

I think you

[Asashosakari]

lol while I might be "New to the Forum" I'm hoping your not also taking that as my being "New to sumo" if so your'e mistaken brudda.

I quite intentionally phrased it as "new to the forum", so yes, I'm aware of your background.

Either way my point simply is that until someone comes along who can equal the desire and amount of intensity that this guy competes with (instead of keiko boycotting), the question will continue to remain "Who's next"? lol - Ryu

And if you had left it at that, I wouldn't have said anything. My point was about your entirely unnecessary jab with which you ended your post, as though everyone who dares to criticize Asashoryu "just doesn't get it yet". This is a web forum for the discussion of sumo, not a place to sharpen your WWE interview skills (which is how some of your recent posts have come across to me, to be frank, including the one I'm replying to right now).

Anyway, I'll drop this, before things get ugly and even more off-topic.

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

lol

Shoryu is master in getting morozashi. When he gets it there is about one rikishi capable of beating him and that is Kotonowaka whose long left arm can get left uwate and that is bad for Shoryu. So when Shoryu gets morozashi he has won the bout, that tsuriotoshi is totally unnecessary and is just like if Taikai would do his (in his prime at least) killer tsuki so that he would give a maximum push with full follow-up at the tawara so that the foe would fly badly into the emptiness. Tsuriotoshi is dangerous. Shoryu is putting his training foe at deliberate risk when doing that, especially when done against rikishi who has known injury problems. Even if the injury risk would be small, it is still a punishing act with no sense at all. Shoryu enjoys that. There are plenty of rikishi who could do morozashi-tsuriotoshi but they don't. Or is there someone who doubts Wakanosato couldn't slam people down with tsuriotoshi when he gets morozashi? There is a reason why tsuriotoshi has not been done much at all in the past and the reason isn't that there wouldn't have been rikishi with the capacity of doing that. Morozashi for Shoryu (and for many other rikishi) is like a semi-knock out in street fighting. Sure some people think it is nice to kick once or twice to the head of the half-conscious victim just as it is nice to do some tsuriotoshi from morozashi when you have Shoryu's morozashi skills?

Kotonishiki picked up Akinoshima once and dumped him with a nasty one and SHuzan was once evidently pissed about fatal helicopter accident and did tsuriotoshi to Hamanoshima from okuri-position and Chiyonofuji paid back to Terao with a tsuriotoshi once.

It would be interesting to hear comments if KaioU would hunt for every rikishi he lost to in previous basho in order to show them some nasty kotenage because he is good at it and it teaches foes not to put their left hand inside and dare to beat him?

One thing hard to understand are those comments where people come here to write stuff like "Oh they are such wimps!" or "Deal with it!" when the actual rikishi in highest division consider such keiko action very propulsive. Has there been any rikishi who have said it is ok that Shoryu does those things? And after all makuuchi rikishi are accustomed to lot of pain and discomfort and also injuries. It is very hard for me to understand how anyone would consider professional rikishi in highest division sissies or athletes who are not tough? I'd say guys who do sumo from age of 15 way over 10 years have gotten their ass kicked many times, have learned the meaning of true pain and are not the first ones to chicken out because they would be afraid.

My babble is outsider's' (in sumo sense) babble but guys close to ozumo seem to have similar thoughts, no?

Oh, Taikai tried to kill Takanohana once in honbasho bout. Looked scary! KaioU tried to kill Kotoryu once and that was probably the worst looking situation I have ever seen. Natsu 2000 day 9. Ok, maybe they didn't try to kill although Taikai's move sure looked that way. Can't remember the basho now...perhaps Natsu 2000 day 13.

lmaorotf

[Onnagumo]

One thing hard to understand are those comments where people come here to write stuff like "Oh they are such wimps!" or "Deal with it!" when the actual rikishi in highest division consider such keiko action very propulsive. Has there been any rikishi who have said it is ok that Shoryu does those things? And after all makuuchi rikishi are accustomed to lot of pain and discomfort and also injuries. It is very hard for me to understand how anyone would consider professional rikishi in highest division sissies or athletes who are not tough? I'd say guys who do sumo from age of 15 way over 10 years have gotten their ass kicked many times, have learned the meaning of true pain and are not the first ones to chicken out because they would be afraid.

My babble is outsider's' (in sumo sense) babble but guys close to ozumo seem to have similar thoughts, no?

Actually, this total outsider has similar thoughts too... thanks Kaikitsune-zeki, for being better with words than I am (Blushing...)

Shoryu is master in getting morozashi. When he gets it there is about one rikishi capable of beating him and that is Kotonowaka whose long left arm can get left uwate and that is bad for Shoryu

:-/ and with Kotonowaka at Maegashira 5.... I don't know about that next zensho yusho, Asa (Eh?)

[Zentoryu]

But whats most dangerous about his tsurio.? The risk of injury or the knowledge of humiliation?

Tsuriotoshi is a lifting body slam. You are lifting your opponents up and slaming them down onto the clay. What makes it dangerous is that the victim of this move is completely helpless and at the mercy of his opponent once lifted into the air. They fall from whatever position and whatever angle that the opponent drops them and they often times have no opportunity to brace themselves. An unbraced fall onto hard clay can easily lead to injury.

When you couple this with Asa's sometimes over-aggresiveness in keiko, and the fact that most rikishi don't expect to be tsuriotoshied in practice, then yes, Tsuriotoshi can be really dangerous.

Edited November 12, 2004 by Zentoryu

[Otokonoyama]

Some excellent points on both sides of the argument (Eh?)

IMHO, it's partly to do with the situation where Ozumo is a balancing act between pure martial discipline and public performance. We all (including those in sumo, not only we outsiders) seem to disagree on where exactly to draw that line... (Blushing...)

[Ryukaze]

No mistake about it tsuriotoshi can be a potentially "dangerous" way to loose a match, especially considering the weight of most top division rikishi. However I dont agree with those who would call it a "cheap" or "dirty" technique. Punching, Hair pulling, and eye-gouging are without doubt considerably "cheap" as well as dangerous, which is why they appear on the kyokai's "hansoku" list of banned techniques. Tsuri-otoshi is perfectly legal however, as are a great deal of other techniques which could in like-wise be considered "dangerous", ( tsuppari or utchari maybe to name a few...) there is a fine line however, between that which is "against the rules" and that which is perfectly legit. While I think everyone deserves the right to dislike a rikishi's style of sumo or certainly any particular kimarite, unless the technique performed is illegal I dont think anyone is warranted in their declaiming a rikishi as "Dirty" or "brutal".

(Eh?)

p.s. Was that W.W.E style enough for everyone? (Hitting with chair...) lol

Edited November 12, 2004 by Ryukaze

[karlsmom]

...everyone deserves the right to dislike a rikishi's style of sumo or certainly any particular kimarite, unless the technique performed is illegal I dont think anyone is warranted in their declaiming a rikishi as "Dirty" or "brutal". 

This definitely makes sense. (Pulling hair...)

[Manekineko]

Asashoryu's approach reminds me of that good ol' song of "Bijelo Dugme" (Bosnian rock band with some really good stuff):

"

[QttP]

Oh, Taikai tried to kill Takanohana once in honbasho bout. Looked scary! KaioU tried to kill Kotoryu once and that was probably the worst looking situation I have ever seen. Natsu 2000 day 9. Ok, maybe they didn't try to kill although Taikai's move sure looked that way. Can't remember the basho now...perhaps Natsu 2000 day 13.

I can't seem to be able to get Kaio-Kotoryu from Natsu2K-09, the Banzuke.com says it's not there...

Chiyotaikai-Takanohana from Natsu2K-13 I have - it's a rather powerful and violent yoritaoshi, but why would you classify it as attempted murder? Was it something in the bout prior to the finishing move? Or maybe it's a different bout?

[Yoavoshimaru]

By wimps I meant mentally, not physically. It's not reasonable to call the sekitori physical wimps. But refusing to compete with someone better because you fear humiliation is wimpy, in the plainest, elementary school sense of the word. I understand and respect the other (significantly more verbose) opinions in this thread, but to me this is a very simple matter (Punk rocker...)

[Doyobi]

Asashoryu's approach reminds me of that good ol' song of "Bijelo Dugme" (Bosnian rock band with some really good stuff):

"

[Asashosakari]

By wimps I meant mentally, not physically.

Edited November 13, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Coo-cook]

Asashosakari,

Good point, if you think of guys like Tosa (32) and Muso (32).

But, Taikai (28), Mickey (28) and Sato (28) ?

For them, it should be like... "Four more years"..."Four more years"...."Four more years" :-) (Applauding...) (Annoyed...) (Clapping wildly...)

Or, maybe I'm wrong. They are old too. :-(

[Asashosakari]

Historically, being in or near sanyaku at age 32 is fairly uncommon, I think. Musoyama has obviously been protected by the kadoban regulations, and Tosanoumi has profited from the fact that his fighting style has a lower-than-average risk of injury (at least that's my impression, if I'm wrong please correct me).

I suppose Wakanosato could still be around near the top in 4 years, either because he has gone the Tosanoumi route (staying free of injuries due to his style of sumo) or because he made it to Ozeki and becomes the next Musoyama (nobody kill me for that comparison, please). On the other hand, I seriously doubt Kotomitsuki will still be fighting in sanyaku when he's 32...he simply has had too many accumulated injuries over the years. (Clapping wildly...) And Taikai...well, Taikai is Taikai. (Applauding...)

Anyway, I'm not saying that all of these guys have peaked already. Kyokutenho is a pretty good example of a late bloomer (partially because he too has managed to stay free of injuries, I think), and so is Kaio obviously, so some of the others could also become late-career surprises. But that's the exception, not the rule unfortunately.

Edited November 13, 2004 by Asashosakari

[BuBa]

Here I go with my usual 'In Mongolian wrestling' stuff. I hope it is not getting too annoying :-D . Anyways, as Asa said in one of his interviews tsuriotoshi is a preferred technique of his father and in fact is quite common used technique in Boh. Following a Boh for quite a while (more than 2 decades), I have never heard it injured someone. It is not more dangerous then any other technique. After all two-handed belt/mavashi/zodog grip is a standard wrestling position in Boh. So humiliation might be The reason preventing the rikishis to do keiko with Asa. Hakuho and Ama, as Asashosakari said, are to young to get humiliated by a loss in training and in addition they know the tsuriotoshi is not something to be afraid of in particular. OTOH there are dangerous techniques that banned/frowned upon in Boh but not in sumo. Shumuku-zori is one, but basically because of danger to the executer (neck injury) rather then opponent.

Oh and there are pretty effective ways to fight against the tsuriotoshi. Anyone? How about to play a shisho?

Edited November 13, 2004 by BuBa

[Coo-cook]

Buba,

The danger level might be different in sumo and Mongolian wrestling technics.

Mongolian bouts are fought on plain soft grass with no boundaries and sumo is on hard clay and.......

But, I still don't buy that tsuriotoshi is considerably more dangerious than other technics. Interesting to see injury statistics if such exist.

[Asashosakari]

The danger level might be different in sumo and Mongolian wrestling technics.

Mongolian bouts are fought on plain soft grass with no boundaries and sumo is on hard clay and.......

It's also a weight issue. The height from which one can fall and still avoid injury decreases rather quickly with larger weight. Once you get up to the 150+ kg many rikishi have which definitely isn't a "normal" weight for a human after all, being crushed by your own weight if you fall awkwardly (say, on your elbow or your knee) becomes a real danger.

[sumofan]

Just this past Basho I did it to Takanoyama a couple of times, almost smashed him through the wall, because he was afraid of me and wouldn't fight, just give up in the match.

This might be a little off-topic, but it seems that you are an active rikishi (forgive my ignorance please)

are you in makuuchi?

i do not remember your name (but i admit i have some trouble remembering the long names, except for foreigners. probably because i can more easily recognize them)

btw me and my wife loved your post about takamisakari. we are fans of him, so your background info was truly interesting.

kind regards,

Bruno.