Tochinoshin intai

[Yamanashi 4,091]

1) Now that it's over, his face looks five years younger.

2) For awhile I've been wondering if his knees would give out before his hair did.

[Gaijingai 1,664]

Nice article by Kyodo news about his retirement
https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2023/05/1ad9dbb69323-update1-sumo-georgian-former-ozeki-tochinoshin-calls-it-quits.html

[Gurowake 4,164]

9 hours ago, dingo said:

With Tochinoshin retiring and Aoiyama's age not leaving him much room either, this is really the end of an era for Caucasian rikishi. The bright spot is that hopefully Shishi can finally make it to Juryo and stay there for a while, taking over the symbolic torch so to say. 

I take it that you mean "White", as neither Aoiyama nor Shishi is from the Caucasus area.  Tochinoshin is, which means the use of "Caucasian" when you mean "White" is a bit problematic.

[Bunbukuchagama 999]

4 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

I take it that you mean "White", as neither Aoiyama nor Shishi is from the Caucasus area.  Tochinoshin is, which means the use of "Caucasian" when you mean "White" is a bit problematic.

Cau·ca·sian

adjective

 

1. 1.

   NORTH AMERICAN

   white-skinned; of European origin.

   "twenty of the therapists were Caucasian, two were African American, and two were Hispanic"

[Gurowake 4,164]

1 minute ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

Cau·ca·sian

 

adjective

 

1. 1.

   NORTH AMERICAN

   white-skinned; of European origin.

   "twenty of the therapists were Caucasian, two were African American, and two were Hispanic"

I'm not going to dispute that is one definition.  But using it when there's another definition that Tochinoshin fits under that Aoiyama and Shishi don't is ripe for confusion when other words exist that mean the same thing as one intends but without the potential other meaning.

[Bunbukuchagama 999]

2 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I'm not going to dispute that is one definition.  But using it when there's another definition that Tochinoshin fits under that Aoiyama and Shishi don't is ripe for confusion when other words exist that mean the same thing as one intends but without the potential other meaning.

It's an Americanism. In the States, nobody thinks about Caucasus when using it. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Bunbukuchagama

[Yamanashi 4,091]

Ahem, Caucasian does have that meaning in the U.S. 

Tochinoshin (Levan Gorgadze), on the other hand, was born in the Caucasus (mountain region) near Mtskheta, the ancient capital of the Kartvelians (pre-BCE Georgians).

Mtskheta is about 20 km from Tbilisi, the modern Georgian capital where Gagamaru (Jugheli Teimuraz) was born.

Aoiyama was born Daniel Ivanov in Elhovo, Bulgaria, near the western edge of the Black Sea. 

About 170 km North is the birthplace of ex-Kotooshu (Karoyan Mahlyunov) in Veliko Tarnovo, Bulgaria.

Soon none of these men will be active rikishi, and that makes me sad.

[Shishi was born in Metripol, Ukraine, which is near Crimea and is currently under Russian control].

[Bunbukuchagama 999]

Only Tochinoshin has any relation to Caucasus (and yes, I visited the Republic of Georgia).

And it's Melitopol (Меліто́поль) for Shishi. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Bunbukuchagama

[Rocks 1,810]

2 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I take it that you mean "White", as neither Aoiyama nor Shishi is from the Caucasus area.  Tochinoshin is, which means the use of "Caucasian" when you mean "White" is a bit problematic.

I don't really see where it's use is problematic given it to mean White is not just one definition but the overwhelmingly dominant use of the word in the English language. I doubt there is anyone who refer to only  people actually coming from a land in the Caucuses as the only Caucasians. Even the people from there would refer to themselves by their Country or perhaps Ethnic group just as someone from Idaho would not refer to themselves as a Rockie. I understand a minority of modern scientists taking issue with the term given it's racial connotations and origins but those are mostly unknown or ignored by the vast majority of people. 

[Gurowake 4,164]

22 minutes ago, Rocks said:

I don't really see where it's use is problematic given it to mean White is not just one definition but the overwhelmingly dominant use of the word in the English language. I doubt there is anyone who refer to only  people actually coming from a land in the Caucuses as the only Caucasians. Even the people from there would refer to themselves by their Country or perhaps Ethnic group just as someone from Idaho would not refer to themselves as a Rockie. I understand a minority of modern scientists taking issue with the term given it's racial connotations and origins but those are mostly unknown or ignored by the vast majority of people. 

OK, maybe I should have just said *I* was confused.  The only reason this is an issue is that Tochinoshin himself was from the Caucasus.  If we were talking about most other white people, it wouldn't be as potentially confusing.  It's problematic in the sense that the term has multiple meanings, two of which apply to Tochinoshin, and at very least I assumed when reading initially that the more specific meaning was meant, which confused me, because I was pretty sure Aoiyama and Shishi weren't included in the more specific meaning.  I literally had to reread it, because my brain hadn't realized at first that he might have just meant "White", because it automatically assumed the more specific meaning without even noticing the ambiguity at first.  I assumed that other people would have a similar reaction.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Gurowake

[hakutorizakura 697]

Sad basho. First Ichi, then now Tochi. Well, all the best anyways, we will miss that sky crane!

[Rocks 1,810]

4 minutes ago, hakutorizakura said:

Sad basho. First Ichi, then now Tochi. Well, all the best anyways, we will miss that sky crane!

Yes, I'm expecting to hear from Chiyonokuni next. 

[RabidJohn 2,086]

Good luck to Tochinoshin in his new life back in Georgia. That was a great ozumo career, if somewhat up and down.

---

All this toss-arguing about Caucasian/European/white rikishi. Doesn't Kinbozan get a shout? He looks white (or whatever you want to call it) to me...

[Bunbukuchagama 999]

Just now, RabidJohn said:

All this toss-arguing about Caucasian/European/white rikishi. Doesn't Kinbozan get a shout? He looks white (or whatever you want to call it) to me...

He is Kazakh, definitely not white.

[RabidJohn 2,086]

6 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

He is Kazakh, definitely not white.

Kazakhstan is regarded as being partly in eastern Europe. About 30% of the population is not ethnic Kazakh, and a fair few of those are of European origin.

As I said, looks white to me.

[Bunbukuchagama 999]

Just now, RabidJohn said:

Kazakhstan is regarded as being partly in eastern Europe. About 30% of the population is not ethnic Kazakh, and a fair few of those are of European origin.

As I said, looks white to me.

But he is. Only a tiny fraction of Kazakhstan is technically in Europe, by the way.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,291]

There's already enough fighting about the Caucasus in the world, no need to fight about it in the sumo forum.

[Jemuzu 34]

Sad to see, my favourite rikishi since I got into sumo in 2016. His ozeki promotion run was sensational, I remember his bout vs Hakuho where Hakuho said 'I'll beat you at your own game', and lost.

Really he did well to keep going for as long as he did, he hasn't been able to do 'his brand of sumo' pretty much since he got promoted to Ozeki and has been increasingly reliant on non-yotsu techniques (including the odd henka).

[Jakusotsu 6,431]

Can we please close that particular can of worms? There's certainly much to say about it (I'm already biting my tongue), but this is not the place.

[yorikiried by fate 2,040]

55 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Can we please close that particular can of worms? There's certainly much to say about it (I'm already biting my tongue), but this is not the place.

Seriously?! My popcorn just pinged!

[Asapedroryu 243]

Too soon to say that apart from the 1st 6 months in 2018, where he did great ozeki deserved sumo, he was just an upper maegashira rikishi with an inability to beat the higher ranks?

Edited May 19, 2023 by Asapedroryu

[Akinomaki 41,909]

1 hour ago, Jakusotsu said:

Can we please close that particular can of worms? There's certainly much to say about it (I'm already biting my tongue), but this is not the place.

Sumo is all about shusshin, so this discussion should not be seen as a can of worms, and it is an extremely civilized one so far. You should close it down when it goes out of hand, but it's quite informative so far. And all directly related to Tochinoshin.

[RabidJohn 2,086]

4 minutes ago, Asapedroryu said:

Too soon to say that apart from the 1st 6 months in 2018, where he did great ozeki deserved sumo, he was just an upper makuuchi rikishi with an inability to beat the higher ranks?

Just because he's called it a day doesn't mean I've forgotten his abyssmal h2h record against Hakuho. Then again, so many chances to fail means he was in the joi for a long time, which has to count for something.

And his ozeki run is a joint record with Wakanohana's, which is awesome.

[RabidJohn 2,086]

1 minute ago, Akinomaki said:

Sumo is all about shusshin, so this discussion should not be seen as a can of worms, and it is an extremely civilized one so far. You should close it down when it goes out of hand, but it's quite informative so far. And all directly related to Tochinoshin.

Aye, but it's getting off topic in this particular thread.

Maybe split it off?

[Akinomaki 41,909]

Only a few more pics - no gallery so far, same as for Ichinojo. As an ex ozeki, Tochinoshin got an official mention of his retirement in the NSK information, Ichinojo had none.

yusho basho Hatsu 2018

oo

the controversial bout Natsu 2019 vs. Asanoyama

o

Kasugano suddenly changed clothing (Hochi is not as bad as Nikkan, but also prone to error)

o

(Edit: Kimurayama the next Kasugano? )

Edited May 19, 2023 by Akinomaki