Kyushu 2022 discussion (results)

[Kaninoyama]

Whether he wins the yusho this basho or not, it feels like Hoshuryu has taken the next step and will be on track for an Ozeki run next year. I'd be surprised if he's not one by the end of 2023, based on the usual criteria. 

[Jakusotsu]

There's lady in pink who is always bursting with joy when Daiamami wins, and it seems like he always wins when she's present. Fukuoka is the venue closest to his shusshin, so she might be family. His Mom perhaps?

I always enjoy her antics and hope Daiamami will win two more!

[Koorifuu]

I've said this and will say it again.

The soft-hearted likes of Shodai and Mitakeumi have only made ozeki thanks to the post-Tokitaizan clampdowns on hazing and overall hierarchical abuse. In the old days, they'd have been psychologically destroyed before they had a chance to put their talents to use. The world has changed, and so has ozumo, even if it's not enough for some people.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Koorifuu

[Bakayokozuna]

5 henka in a row by Kototsubasa in makushita! Thats...something.Not working this time with young Kayo ready for it. 

Up top, this is the NEW best opportunity ever for Takayasu. I have the feeling he will not choke this time. But lets see. 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Bakayokozuna

[Seiyashi]

1 hour ago, Koorifuu said:

I've said this and will say it again.

The soft-hearted likes of Shodai and Mitakeumi have only made ozeki thanks to the post-Tokitaizan clampdowns on hazing and overall hierarchical abuse. In the old days, they'd have been psychologically destroyed before they had a chance to put their talents to use. The world has changed, and so has ozumo, even if it's not enough for some people.

As unpolitic as it is, while you may be right, where's the happy medium between instilling the will to win and creating a bully?

[Koorifuu]

22 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

As unpolitic as it is, while you may be right, where's the happy medium between instilling the will to win and creating a bully?

I sure hope that's where everyone's aiming to get at, but that's an extremely delicate balance to achieve... I wish those in charge all the best at getting there, no easy task at all.

[maglor]

1 hour ago, Koorifuu said:

I've said this and will say it again.

The soft-hearted likes of Shodai and Mitakeumi have only made ozeki thanks to the post-Tokitaizan clampdowns on hazing and overall hierarchical abuse. In the old days, they'd have been psychologically destroyed before they had a chance to put their talents to use. The world has changed, and so has ozumo, even if it's not enough for some people.

Mitakeumi wasn't heyagashira for exactly one basho, and he was unsalaried for two.

Going to guess that even pre-Tokitaizan we didn't see too much hazing of sekitori by Sandamne guys

[lackmaker]

It makes it sound like Shodai and Mitakeumi are failures. Not true given the heights they've reached. Bullying is just as likely to have robbed sumo of as many successes as it's created. Either way it's not acceptable.

[Seiyashi]

2 minutes ago, maglor said:

Mitakeumi wasn't heyagashira for exactly one basho, and he was unsalaried for two.

Going to guess that even pre-Tokitaizan we didn't see too much hazing of sekitori by Sandamne guys

Assuming Koorifuu's hypothesis is right that hazing instils some toughness, both Mitakeumi and Shōdai fit the pattern.

Mitakeumi had a red carpet into sekitoridom and never got hazed. Shōdai was from the stable that got in trouble for hazing and presumably would have taken some care to keep its nose clean, not to mention he was a college star and made it to sekitori in about a year quite quickly.

Contrast Takakeishō and Terunofuji who have a sodton more of fighting spirit than those two. I'm not so sure Takakeishō is a brilliant example as he's a bit petulant and was initially a disciple of Takanohana, who turned out to have run a terrible training environment, but at least Terunofuji's case offers some hope that a really good coach behind the scenes can create the right environment.

[Koorifuu]

7 minutes ago, maglor said:

Mitakeumi wasn't heyagashira for exactly one basho, and he was unsalaried for two.

Going to guess that even pre-Tokitaizan we didn't see too much hazing of sekitori by Sandamne guys

It did cross my mind that Mitakeumi's makushita tsukedashi status didn't make him the best example for a couple of reasons (protected prized possession + heyagashira), but there was still some potential for veteran big guns to make his life miserable with old-school butsukari geiko in degeiko or jungyo events. I'm sure they still did, but perhaps not to the extent it'd have been a few decades ago.
It'd also have been hit or miss with the oyakata.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Koorifuu

[maglor]

3 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Assuming Koorifuu's hypothesis is right that hazing instils some toughness, both Mitakeumi and Shōdai fit the pattern.

Mitakeumi had a red carpet into sekitoridom and never got hazed. Shōdai was from the stable that got in trouble for hazing and presumably would have taken some care to keep its nose clean, not to mention he was a college star and made it to sekitori in about a year quite quickly.

Contrast Takakeishō and Terunofuji who have a sodton more of fighting spirit than those two. I'm not so sure Takakeishō is a brilliant example as he's a bit petulant and was initially a disciple of Takanohana, who turned out to have run a terrible training environment, but at least Terunofuji's case offers some hope that a really good coach behind the scenes can create the right environment.

Leaving aside the fact that there's plenty of other guys who you could compare those two with(the better training spirit doesn't seem to be helping Takanosho or Takarafuji), the mental toughness instilled in Takakeisho has helped him achieve ... less yusho than Mitakeumi with the same career high rank?

[maglor]

2 minutes ago, Koorifuu said:

It did cross my mind that Mitakeumi's makushita tsukedashi status didn't make him the best example for a couple of reasons (protected prized possession + heyagashira), but there was still some potential for veteran big guns to make his life miserable with old-school butsukari geiko in degeiko or jungyo events. I'm sure they still did, but perhaps not to the extent it'd have been a few decades ago.
It'd also have been hit or miss with the oyakata.

Dewanoumi oyakata personally recruited Mitakeumi, and his reward was a guy who has arguably achieved more in sumo than any other guy on the banzuke not named Terunofuji.

[Koorifuu]

Just now, maglor said:

Dewanoumi oyakata personally recruited Mitakeumi, and his reward was a guy who has arguably achieved more in sumo than any other guy on the banzuke not named Terunofuji.

There's no debating Mitakeumi's achievements when compared to his current peers, but let's face it, he'd have plenty more if his determination / mental resilience levels were anywhere close to the greats'. A determination of steel is pretty much a pre-requisite for greatness in any competition.
He might've never been in a position where he'd be hazed regularly, but he's still the kind of guy who wouldn't 'have what it takes' in a world where said mental resilience was more important.

[Seiyashi]

21 minutes ago, maglor said:

Leaving aside the fact that there's plenty of other guys who you could compare those two with(the better training spirit doesn't seem to be helping Takanosho or Takarafuji), the mental toughness instilled in Takakeisho has helped him achieve ... less yusho than Mitakeumi with the same career high rank?

Before this gets too involved, I'd just like to make clear that I'm just trying to take Koorifuu's point as far as possible. I don't condone bullying but I'm engaging in this exercise just to see how far we get.

Takarafuji has an off basho and is near retirement age, and not long ago someone was making the point that Isegahama was grabbing what looked like second tier college competitors yet somehow bringing better out of them. Takanoshō started with Chiganoura, not Takanohana, so different initial starting point (I didn't say anything about Takakeishō's current stable). Contrast Naruto who's been grabbing really hot prospects and arguably the only reason he has a sekitori is that he finally snagged a TD who hasn't gotten injured.

Re Takakeishō v Mitakeumi, if you consider only yūshō, then sure, 3 to 2. But Takakeishō has a better average - .63 v .57 when considering bouts actually fought, an ōzeki tenure at least 5 times longer, 17 DD KK in 35 makuuchi basho (6 of which were 12-3 or better), and 7 JY to go with those 2 yūshō, two of which were playoffs (so it could have been 4 yūshō and 5 JY instead, not to mention one of those playoffs was against Mitakeumi so it could have been 3 to 3 or 3 to 2, even). In contrast, Mitakeumi has 12 DD KK in 42 makuuchi basho (only three of which were 12-3 or better) and no JY, so he's only been yūshō relevant for 3 basho in his career compared to Takakeishō's 4. Plus don't forget Takakeishō has had multiple kyūjō due to injury, so he's arguably had less fighting basho than Mitakeumi which makes his DD strike rate even better. When he shows up, there's a better than 1 in 2 chance that he'll be involved in the arasoi somehow.

To put it extremely harshly, next to the contender that is Takakeishō, Mitakeumi isn't a successful champion, he's an opportunist coasting off his talent, showing up and making off with the yūshō when no one else can. Hands down I think Takakeishō wins that comparison. I don't see how Mitakeumi can be considered to have a better career than Takakeishō by any metric other than number of yūshō, and even so that came down to beating Takakeishō in a playoff or else it'd at least be the other way round if not more in Takakeishō's favour.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Seiyashi

[maglor]

"I don't see how Mitakeumi can be considered to have a better career than Takakeishō by any metric other than number of yūshō, and even so that came down to beating Takakeishō in a playoff or else it'd at least be the other way round if not more in Takakeishō's favour.""

Sounds like mental toughness in a big moment to me

[Barutokai]

7 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Much schadenfreude to be had in jonidan today as would-be bad boy Ohtani ran into a man he couldn't bully and got squished by Asashiyu (Murata). He gave a big, petulant yelp as he hit the ground drawing a look from Asashiyu that said "Jeez kid, show some dignity".

I'd like to see that.

[Seiyashi]

2 minutes ago, maglor said:

"I don't see how Mitakeumi can be considered to have a better career than Takakeishō by any metric other than number of yūshō, and even so that came down to beating Takakeishō in a playoff or else it'd at least be the other way round if not more in Takakeishō's favour.""

Sounds like mental toughness in a big moment to me

I disagree, mental toughness is not about one big moment, especially considering how sumo bouts can be over in seconds, you can make mistakes, and Takakeishō was still recovering from injury then. It's about the discipline and perseverance over the long haul.

[maglor]

Takakeisho is definitely a better rikishi than Mitakeumi, and maybe that is due to better dedication in training or better overall mental state, etc.

But if Takakeisho leads in all those stats you've listed above, and yet Mitakeumi still has more yusho, that indicates to me that Takakeisho struggles to finishing things off in the last few days of a tournament. Two playoff loses, a loss to Shodai on Day 14 that cost him a yusho, dropping two straight while in contention the basho Tokushoryu won.

Mitakeumi might have plenty of Day 8-12 slides, but when he's in a position to win the yusho going into the last few days he finishes it off. So in at least one way, he's pretty mentally tough when the pressure is at its highest, which is something Takayasu(who also has much more Y+JY than Mitakeumi), doubtless wishes he has

[Seiyashi]

That's a fair way to put it. 

So which would you rather have: a rikishi who knows when to be bothered to get hot and stay hot, or someone who just has at it all the way even if he occasionally stumbles?

[Katooshu]

3 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

There's lady in pink who is always bursting with joy when Daiamami wins, and it seems like he always wins when she's present. Fukuoka is the venue closest to his shusshin, so she might be family. His Mom perhaps?

I always enjoy her antics and hope Daiamami will win two more!

I believe it actually is his mom, so the real Daiamommy. She shows up early and cheers for all the Oitekaze boys as well - I think she has a banner for every stable member.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Katooshu

[Akinomaki]

Wakatakakage with his win and Hoshoryu's loss today ensured to get most wins of this year in makuuchi - awarded after the yusho award parade is complete. He has 56 wins now, Hoshoryu and Kotonowaka with both 54 at the moment may still join him, but I guess he'll get it alone for himself.

Wakatakakage is the 4th below y/o to get most wins of the year, the other 3 all made it later, Taiho, Taka(no)hanada and Asanoyama o

Edited November 25, 2022 by Akinomaki

[dingo]

On 24/11/2022 at 16:51, dingo said:

Kagayaki is in the makuuchi arasoi. Didn't think I'd ever get to type those words. 

So much for that. 

Takakeisho yusho? 

[Fashiritētā]

2 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

There's no debating Mitakeumi's achievements when compared to his current peers, but let's face it, he'd have plenty more if his determination / mental resilience levels were anywhere close to the greats'. A determination of steel is pretty much a pre-requisite for greatness in any competition.
He might've never been in a position where he'd be hazed regularly, but he's still the kind of guy who wouldn't 'have what it takes' in a world where said mental resilience was more important.

One might also say that Mitakeumi was treated like a bluechip athlete, so his mental toughness isn’t as strong.

Maybe having him start lower on the Bansuke would have given him that little extra he needs

[Reonito]

13 hours ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

What that opens up, however, is the question of if they'll push him to sekiwake if he goes 13-2, specifically to make him ozeki-eligible.

Edit: I realize Daieisho had ten before his 13-2 and was only bumped up to komusubi, so I'm not saying the odds of Takayasu going to sekiwake are good. But if Shodai drops, I think they at least have the discussion due to the lack of ozeki (and the only current candidate, Hoshoryu, being completely unproven in terms of whether he can keep up this level of performance).

I agree, they could do it precisely for that reason.

[Reonito]

5 hours ago, Hankegami said:

I am skeptical over this "Kitanofuji precedent". Back then the standard was 30 wins if I reckon correctly, so 28 would have been like today's 31. In the post-Futahaguro era the standard has been raised to 33, and no promotion ever happened since with less than 32 wins. In this context, perhaps a 31 wins Sekiwake would have had a chance with the upcoming Hatsu banzuke. But 29, or even 28? Too low, in my opinion.

I agree promotions from that era don't constitute a precedent.