YDC convenes after Hatsu 2022

[Seiyashi]

41 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I like this idea, but how do you deal with results from their bouts re: the aite’s records? Suppose a guy ends up 6-1 because he lost to Abi, while a guy who didn’t gets 7-0, same as Abi. Since Abi isn’t eligible for the yusho, the 7-0 guy takes it. The 6-1 guy is getting hard done by here for having faced an ex-sekitori.

Well, like I said, no real answer for the breaking of a 7-0. Tough luck I think. The more involved answer is to give every aite of the punished rikishi an effective fusensho, but that will give future readers of the DB an absolute headache. That said, not as if it hasn't already happened with the alternating banzuke in the early days...

Edited January 27, 2022 by Seiyashi

[Dapeng]

37 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I like this idea, but how do you deal with results from their bouts re: the aite’s records? Suppose a guy ends up 6-1 because he lost to Abi, while a guy who didn’t gets 7-0, same as Abi. Since Abi isn’t eligible for the yusho, the 7-0 guy takes it. The 6-1 guy is getting hard done by here for having faced an ex-sekitori.

Edit: Ah, I guess that’s what you meant by the final sentence about breaking a 7-0?

Suspension itself is not a punishment, the resulting demotion is. I think a suspended rikishi should still attend a basho at his current rank but frozen from promotion and still liable to demotion. Also, he loses all his rank privileges.  For example, a M1 rikishi is suspended for 3 bashos. Upon the decision of the suspension, he still competes at M1 but no promotion and no award even he KK and his record is considered as 8-7. If he MK, he is demoted accordingly. In addition, his rank privileges (payment and other treatments) are immediately demoted to that of the rank he is supposed to be at the end of his suspension (in this case the rank of MS). 

[Asashosakari]

3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Well, like I said, no real answer for the breaking of a 7-0. Tough luck I think. The more involved answer is to give every aite of the punished rikishi an effective fusensho, but that will give future readers of the DB an absolute headache.

If it's about keeping such an on-probation rikishi out of the yusho race, the practical solution would probably be to have him sit out the first round of matches, and then fight only 1+ loss opponents for six bouts. That being said, there are of course many more rikishi who can be adversely affected than just those who are on zensho course, so IMHO any such concept is a non-starter.

[Churaumi]

This is all adding a lot of complexity to a beautifully simple sport. 

[Godango]

5 hours ago, Dapeng said:

Suspension itself is not a punishment, the resulting demotion is. I think a suspended rikishi should still attend a basho at his current rank but frozen from promotion and still liable to demotion. Also, he loses all his rank privileges.  For example, a M1 rikishi is suspended for 3 bashos. Upon the decision of the suspension, he still competes at M1 but no promotion and no award even he KK and his record is considered as 8-7. If he MK, he is demoted accordingly. In addition, his rank privileges (payment and other treatments) are immediately demoted to that of the rank he is supposed to be at the end of his suspension (in this case the rank of MS). 

This is ripe for exploitation in match-fixing, not to mention the ethical conundrum (you can't force someone to do something without reward). I don't know of any profession where 'you have to work for no pay' is considered a disciplinary action. I know ozumo is different already with lower-rankers essentially being indentured servants, but it's still some kind of pay via allowance, room/board etc that is clearly linked to their rank. 

[Dapeng]

1 hour ago, Godango said:

This is ripe for exploitation in match-fixing, not to mention the ethical conundrum (you can't force someone to do something without reward). I don't know of any profession where 'you have to work for no pay' is considered a disciplinary action. I know ozumo is different already with lower-rankers essentially being indentured servants, but it's still some kind of pay via allowance, room/board etc that is clearly linked to their rank. 

Reduction of payment (e.g. 50%) is already used as punishment. A 100% reduction is just a more severe punishment. The match fixing or mukiryoku by the "suspended" rikishi can be easily prevented by making him withdrawing from the basho after he KKs. 

[Godango]

46 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

Reduction of payment (e.g. 50%) is already used as punishment. A 100% reduction is just a more severe punishment.

I get what you're saying here, and I suppose you could look at it as no different to a one-time fine for the equivalent amount; but something about completely removing someone's remuneration while making them still do the job just doesn't sit well with me.

47 minutes ago, Dapeng said:

The match fixing or mukiryoku by the "suspended" rikishi can be easily prevented by making him withdrawing from the basho after he KKs. 

And that can easily be overcome by strategically picking when to lose and when to win so that you only achieve KK by day 15. There are enough genuine 8-7's achieved by day 15 that it wouldn't look particularly suspicious, even occurring 3 times in a row.

I should note for the outside reader, I (and I assume Dapeng) know this will never happen, it's just a fun mental exercise.

[Eikokurai]

11 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Well, like I said, no real answer for the breaking of a 7-0. Tough luck I think. The more involved answer is to give every aite of the punished rikishi an effective fusensho, but that will give future readers of the DB an absolute headache. That said, not as if it hasn't already happened with the alternating banzuke in the early days...

The closest I can think of from another sport is the UEFA qualifying in international football. Because teams can’t be evenly split into equal-sized divisions, some teams have to play more games when qualifying. At the end of the process, to determine which third-placed team gets into the playoffs (top two qualify automatically) all results against teams that finished bottom of their groups are discarded and the table revised to reflect the new points tally and goals difference. Not sure how such a thing could work in sumo though.

[Kintamayama]

Mr. Yano, in case anyone was wondering what he looks like:

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Kintamayama

[Dapeng]

19 hours ago, Godango said:

I get what you're saying here, and I suppose you could look at it as no different to a one-time fine for the equivalent amount; but something about completely removing someone's remuneration while making them still do the job just doesn't sit well with me.

And that can easily be overcome by strategically picking when to lose and when to win so that you only achieve KK by day 15. There are enough genuine 8-7's achieved by day 15 that it wouldn't look particularly suspicious, even occurring 3 times in a row.

I should note for the outside reader, I (and I assume Dapeng) know this will never happen, it's just a fun mental exercise.

In sumo, a rikishi's ranking reflects his strength and he fights those with similar strength. A rikishi is not supposed to fight those who are much weaker than him, vice-versa. However,  as we already saw, the suspension (as punishment) demoted a strong and healthy rikishi to lower ranks to fight much weaker opponents, which is not fair for his opponents. My suggestion is to solve this dilemma. Anyway, I don't expect NSK will ever make changes according to my suggestion 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Dapeng

[Yamanashi]

3 hours ago, Dapeng said:

In sumo, a rikishi's ranking reflects his strength and he fights those with similar strength. A rikishi is not supposed to fight those who are much weaker than him, vice-versa. However,  as we already saw, the suspension (as punishment) demoted a strong and healthy rikishi to lower ranks to fight much weaker opponents, which is not fair for his opponents. My suggestion is to solve this dilemma. Anyway, I don't expect NSK will ever make changes according to my suggestion 

Interesting, but it seems like "too many moving parts" for the NSK to adopt. I'm not sure whether I agree with your idea, but I agree with you that they'll never do it.

[RabidJohn]

I don't know that there's any satisfactory all-round fix to high-ranked rikishi being allowed to drop down the ranks for any reason.

One could argue that all those toriteki who came up against Terunofuji after he'd sat out 4 and a bit basho to get his knees fixed were at a severe disadvantage, and that he 'stole' makushita and juryo yusho that could have gone to more deserving up-and-comers.

Obviously, we know this only with hindsight, but I'm sure you get my drift. 

[Gospodin]

The penalties for Ryuden, Abi and Asanoyama are the longest suspensions I remember, all others were one basho for gambling and two for a Yokozuna (so no issues with dropping from a rank here), or outright expulsion/forced retirement. Is there any precedent for the suspensions of the former three ?

[Yamanashi]

6 hours ago, Gospodin said:

The penalties for Ryuden, Abi and Asanoyama are the longest suspensions I remember, all others were one basho for gambling and two for a Yokozuna (so no issues with dropping from a rank here), or outright expulsion/forced retirement. Is there any precedent for the suspensions of the former three ?

COVID.

[Gospodin]

What I was trying to say is: have other rikishi been suspended for three to six tournaments in the past, or were those the first ?

Edited January 30, 2022 by Gospodin

[ryafuji]

 

52 minutes ago, Gospodin said:

What I was trying to say is: have other rikishi been suspended for three to six tournaments in the past, or were those the first ?

Not that I can think of. Three of those involved in the 2011 match-fixing scandal, Chiyohakuho, ex-Kasuganishiki, and Enatsukasa, were given two-year bans, but they all chose to quit.  

Edited January 30, 2022 by ryafuji