Hidenoumi and Shiden under suspicion of illegal gambling

[ryafuji]

5 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

While it's not a retroactive suspension for Shiden, just a reprimand, but (according to Nikkan anyway) he's set to get demoted anyway...? Not sure the current reporting edds up.

It certainly doesn't. The Mainichi is saying Hidenoumi will sit out March.

Top-division sumo wrestler suspended 1 tourney for illegal gambling - The Mainichi

[Asashosakari]

11 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

It certainly doesn't. The Mainichi is saying Hidenoumi will sit out March.

Top-division sumo wrestler suspended 1 tourney for illegal gambling - The Mainichi

Probably just a bad translation, Mainichi's report in Japanese mirrors Nikkan's understanding regarding Hidenoumi. (They don't say anything about Shiden's banzuke fate, though.)

Edit: Or Mainichi corrected their Japanese article, the "last updated" is a full three hours after the initial timestamp.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Asashosakari

[Seiyashi]

Does that open up the really rather weird situation of Shiden going "kosho"? If Hidenoumi's 1-basho suspension is retroactive, it wouldn't have been a big deal to state the same for Shiden as well - the fact that they have not makes it seem as if Shiden just ate a 0-0-15 for nothing, unless the banzuke-makers have frozen his rank. But if they have, then who goes down - Hakuyozan?

[ryafuji]

That couldn't be the reason for Tochimaru's apparently last-minute denial of promotion, could it? 

[Asashosakari]

5 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Does that open up the really rather weird situation of Shiden going "kosho"? If Hidenoumi's 1-basho suspension is retroactive, it wouldn't have been a big deal to state the same for Shiden as well - the fact that they have not makes it seem as if Shiden just ate a 0-0-15 for nothing, unless the banzuke-makers have frozen his rank. But if they have, then who goes down - Hakuyozan?

No, in that case the "Kotoyusho or Tochimaru in juryo?" question will have been answered with "neither".

[Yaochozuna]

Does this "kosho" make sense, though? To do something illegal and be given a free bahso to rest without any loss of rank?

[Seiyashi]

20 minutes ago, Yaochozuna said:

Does this "kosho" make sense, though? To do something illegal and be given a free bahso to rest without any loss of rank?

It might, though, because Shiden as a tsukebito was put in an invidious position by following Hidenoumi. The NSK is being surprisingly reasonable to recognise that he had no real say in the matter, but whether that extends to a "kosho" has yet to be seen.

But we know 4 makushita rikishi are being promoted, so that has to be matched with 4 other demotions in the absence of retirements. That should be Chiyoarashi, Kotoyusho, Chiyonoo, and Asanoyama? Can't be Mitoryu because that was COVID kosho.

[Churaumi]

Tsukebito or not, Shiden went somewhere he was not supposed to be and didn't narc out Hidenoumi. While I'm empathetic to the junior/senior thing and the difficult situation diming a comrade out can put a person in, he knew something was wrong and didn't do anything, apparently. No suspension is probably the right call for him, but the slap on the wrist of losing his rank is fair to me. If he's meant to be juryo, he'll be back soon.

[Seiyashi]

Then Asanoyama gets a pass and stays as sekitori for one more basho?

[Gurowake]

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

Then Asanoyama gets a pass and stays as sekitori for one more basho?

Kotoyusho survives is the other option.  It's certainly more borderline than not demoting Asanoyama.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Gurowake

[shumitto]

4 hours ago, Churaumi said:

 If he's meant to be juryo, he'll be back soon.

Given how long it took him to get there, the chances he will join that group of rikishi who got promoted but never wrestled in the division is not very low. (Towanoyama comes to mind, but his story is a completely different one).

The article doesn't mention where Shiden will land banzuke-wise but one can glean from the context that his score will be treated like a regular 0-0-15 and he will drop. Otherwise, the papers would have brought it up.

[ryafuji]

25 minutes ago, shumitto said:

The article doesn't mention where Shiden will land banzuke-wise but one can glean from the context that his score will be treated like a regular 0-0-15 and he will drop. Otherwise, the papers would have brought it up.

But then why does it say that Hidenoumi has been suspended while Shiden has been given a reprimand, if they are both given a 0-0-15 demotion? Maybe it's just so Shiden doesn't have the stigma of a suspension on his record, even if the end result is the same (a fall in rank). 

Edited January 27, 2022 by ryafuji

[Churaumi]

Weren't the absences driven by the oyakata? It's a little unusual for the kyokai to impose "retroactive" penalties, isn't it? They have usually imposed their own penalties apart from what oyakata have done. If Hidenoumi does come back in March, then it really would be just sparing Shiden the shame of a suspension on his legacy.

[Akinomaki]

32 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

But then why does it say that Hidenoumi has been suspended while Shiden has been given a reprimand, if they are both given a 0-0-15 demotion? Maybe it's just so Shiden doesn't have the stigma of a suspension on his record, even if the end result is the same (a fall in rank). 

Apparently. The penalty and the decision by the oyakata to have them go kyujo are different things. They were so nice as to backdate the suspension to the kyujo of Hidenoumi, and Shiden has just the reprimand, but was kyujo without Corona excuse - and that is the only thing that prevents a demotion for kyujo at the moment. Both got away with an exceptionally light sentence.

Edit: I wonder what happens if the Saitama police doesn't drop charges

Edited January 27, 2022 by Akinomaki

[Seiyashi]

Probably a good time to drag a related thread over from the Promotion post:

Apparently there were supposed to have been 5 juryo promotees, with a would-have-been shin-juryo Tochimaru, but his promotion was iced at the last minute. That suggests that there should have been a slot in juryo that was later revoked - Shiden's?

[Kintamayama]

7 hours ago, ryafuji said:

The one basho being the one he was withdrawn from in January, which is now a retroactive suspension. He is able to compete in March. 

 

Really? I understood that Hidenoumi will sit out March. Nope, he will be participating in March, if we believe Shibatayama. Same Nikkan article says Shiden is going down. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Kintamayama

[Seiyashi]

45 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Really? I understood that Hidenoumi will sit out March. Nope, he will be participating in March, if we believe Shibatayama. Same Nikkan article says Shiden is going down. 

That is so inconsistent unless the article meant to say, but did a bad job of it, that Shiden was also getting a one basho retroactive suspension but the pay cut was exclusive to Hidenoumi. 

[Kintamayama]

Just now, Seiyashi said:

That is so inconsistent unless the article meant to say, but did a bad job of it, that Shiden was also getting a one basho retroactive suspension but the pay cut was exclusive to Hidenoumi. 

I'm beginning to believe Shiden will stay and that was the reason for Tochimaru's failed hope. Pretty sure, actually.

[Seiyashi]

2 hours ago, Churaumi said:

Weren't the absences driven by the oyakata? It's a little unusual for the kyokai to impose "retroactive" penalties, isn't it? They have usually imposed their own penalties apart from what oyakata have done. If Hidenoumi does come back in March, then it really would be just sparing Shiden the shame of a suspension on his legacy.

 

2 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Apparently. The penalty and the decision by the oyakata to have them go kyujo are different things. They were so nice as to backdate the suspension to the kyujo of Hidenoumi, and Shiden has just the reprimand, but was kyujo without Corona excuse - and that is the only thing that prevents a demotion for kyujo at the moment. Both got away with an exceptionally light sentence.

Edit: I wonder what happens if the Saitama police doesn't drop charges

Worth pointing out that Ryuden's three basho suspension was backdated to the one basho his oyakata had him sit out, so he only needed to sit out two more. It's not without precedent although it's certainly not consistent (cf Abi). 

[Asashosakari]

46 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

 

Worth pointing out that Ryuden's three basho suspension was backdated to the one basho his oyakata had him sit out, so he only needed to sit out two more. It's not without precedent although it's certainly not consistent (cf Abi). 

Abi was pulled out of an ongoing tournament. They couldn't really include that one in the suspension count, but I'm sure they didn't totally ignore it in setting the penalty.

[Churaumi]

Just like Asanoyama. If you count the oyakata pulling him out, he's really missing like 6 and a third basho.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Churaumi
I don't remember which day he was yanked and fractions are hard for a kid that went to public school in Kansas

[Seiyashi]

36 minutes ago, Churaumi said:

Just like Asanoyama. If you count the oyakata pulling him out, he's really missing like 6 and a third basho.

12 or 13, very late in. It wasn't a full basho like Ryuden or now the Kise pair. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Seiyashi

[Asojima]

1 hour ago, Churaumi said:

Just like Asanoyama. If you count the oyakata pulling him out, he's really missing like 6 and a third basho.

As an Ozeki, it is moot.  He didn't get his 8, so it didn't matter how much of the basho he missed.

[Akinomaki]

11 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

I'm beginning to believe Shiden will stay and that was the reason for Tochimaru's failed hope. Pretty sure, actually.

It wouldn't surprise me - completely irrational and incalculable decisions and inconsistency with what was done in the past has become a consistent feature in recent times. Not that such erratic moves were anything new in sumo, but the scope of it has reached extreme dimensions.

Shibatayama made clear that doing something against the law isn't such a big deal any more, what really gets punished is only violating the NSK Corona guidelines (which change every time, what gets you suspended for a year one week may next week be allowed): "Violation of the law is also no good, but illegal gambling has no effect on those in the surroundings." Full comment:

Spoiler

今回とは大きく違って、ガイドライン違反は万が一、違反者が感染して本場所に持ち込んでいたら、力士の生命を脅かしたかもしれないし、本場所が中止になったかもしれない。法律違反もダメだが、違法賭博は周囲への影響はないことも含めて、こういう処分になった。外出禁止期間に出て行ったわけでもない

Many Japanese fans are just a alienated as me by this, as the reactions on social media show, like "This claim is ridiculous, they could have easily got Corona at that gambling place". Also increased belief in what Takatoriki claims on his channel is mentioned, connecting it to the riji elections: he claimed that Kise had intended to go for riji and had to stop this plan with the scandal, which was timed with the selection of the candidates, though the gambling took place in July/August.

https://npn.co.jp/article/detail/200019139

[Sakura]

6 hours ago, Asojima said:

As an Ozeki, it is moot.  He didn't get his 8, so it didn't matter how much of the basho he missed.

It's just as well he didn't get his 8 by that point. They might have added an extra basho onto the suspension to get him to kadoban.