Ichidai toshiyori no more?

[Akinomaki]

17 minutes ago, Joaoiyama said:

Don't you think for any "foreign-born" rikishi scandal, there could have been as many Japanese-born scandals not exposed? 

But the behavior of the Japanese-born usually doesn't lead to a scandal. It could be a scandal in another culture, but that is irrelevant. No scandal, no problem.

The report lists the scandalous behavior (including on the dohyo) as 33 cases for Japanese rikishi, 24 of that since 2000, and 74 cases by foreign rikishi, with at most 8.7% of the rikishi foreign, lately 4-5%.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Akinomaki

[Kintamayama]

24 minutes ago, Joaoiyama said:

You answered his question, i made a question of my own. 

*On another note*
Don't you think for any "foreign-born" rikishi scandal, there could have been as many Japanese-born scandals not exposed? 

Well, as the ratio of Japanese to foreign rikishi is about 15 to 1, it's possible. 

[Yamanashi]

6 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

What do you think is the difference? Let's do it.

Obviously, the NSK itself never does any kicking-out itself (which was my previous point); the pressure seems to flow down to the oyakata who is asked to "counsel" the rikishi.  In Abi's case, he was punished for what I thought was non-catastrophic behavior. However, several posters on this Forum were convinced he was gone.  In the case of Harumafuji, he apparently did violence to Takanoiwa, but I was surprised when he left, and I don't think the circumstances of his leaving were exactly as presented.  It's hard to tell what's happening inside any Japanese association, but as we transition from the "old days" (when golf clubs were accepted as instructional materials for wayward rikishi) to whatever the new rules are, it's interesting to see if there is any difference in the way foreigners are treated.  The question may be moot, because (as mentioned elsewuere) in the future the only foreigners in Ozumo will be Mongolian kids who went through the Japanese school pipeline.

[Akinomaki]

4 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

Hokuseiho for instance, is from a Mongolian family, but has lived in Hokkaido as a small child, and his shusshin is listed as such.

With this we can see that it is not the kind of racist xenophobia some people want to see. A foreigner grown up and integrated in Japanese culture is not treated as a foreigner at all. This is not a distrust of foreigners, but of foreign culture.

[pricklypomegranate]

2 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

With this we can see that it is not the kind of racist xenophobia some people want to see. A foreigner grown up and integrated in Japanese culture is not treated as a foreigner at all. This is not a distrust of foreigners, but of foreign culture.

In my opinion, it remains to be seen. He is still only a Makushita level rikishi. If he does go on to be a dai-yokozuna, he will certainly be scrutinised a lot more. There will always be those trying to bring the successful down a peg. If there are criticisms of him not being a true Japanese because of his Mongolian roots, I will not be very surprised - especially since he already has rather ungainly sumo and his dohyo etiquette is not exactly the best. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by pricklypomegranate

[Akinomaki]

4 minutes ago, pricklypomegranate said:

In my opinion, it remains to be seen. He is still only a Makushita level rikishi. If he does go on to be a dai-yokozuna, he will certainly be scrutinised a lot more. There will always be those trying to bring the successful down a peg. If there are criticisms of him not being a true Japanese because of his Mongolian roots, I will not be very surprised - especially since he already has rather ungainly sumo and his dohyo etiquette is not exactly the best. 

For this then Hakuho will be blamed

On 20/04/2021 at 17:12, Akinomaki said:

"The shisho/oyakata are in the position to teach the rikishi 'our country's traditional kokugi'"

To understand everything Japanese they have to be absolutely fully assimilated.

"Should a foreign born oyakata emphasize the multiplicity of his identity and a cosmopolitan view independent from Japanese tradition and spiritual characteristics, it is not ensured that he can teach a rikishi who doesn't fully understand the heart of sumo about 'What is sumo' and 'What is the heart of Japan and sumo' "

This is exactly the distrust towards Hakuho, who is basically the semi-oyakata of Hokuseiho.

[Akinomaki]

The council expects from the foreign-born oyakata to be more Japanese than the Japanese, like Takamiyama.

Reforms have to come from the young Japanese oyakata, especially Araiso, who has a cosmopolitan view almost independent from Japanese tradition and spiritual characteristics - he is allowed to do what foreigners are not.

[pricklypomegranate]

22 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

Reforms have to come from the young Japanese oyakata, especially Araiso, who has a cosmopolitan view almost independent from Japanese tradition and spiritual characteristics - he is allowed to do what foreigners are not.

Well. You say that. But there is trouble in paradise. Here's my translation of the text, feel free to correct me if I am wrong: 

Hideki Matsuyama became the first Japanese golfer to win the Masters' Men's Gold Tournament. Sunday golfers, but also casual fans are overjoyed. Many people didn't think that a Japanese would win one of the four major tournaments in their lifetime. Some are saying that he should be awarded the National Medal of Honour, but many people may have been surprised to see Araiso Oyakata (moto-yokozuna Kisenosato) commenting on this prestigious event in a sports newspaper.

Speaking of Araiso Oyakata, after retiring from sumo, he has studied "the new way of managing sumo stables" at the Graduate School of Sports Sciences, Waseda University. He recently graduated with a thesis on the subject, and is attracting attention and expectations as someone who will bring a new style to the world of sumo. His commentary on the Masters Tournament must be part of his efforts to broaden his horizons, but there was a great deal of oyakata reprimanding, "This is no time to be indulging in such things!"

He has already fallen behind Hakuho as a "master". It has already been two years since he retired with the words of wisdom,"I don't have a single regret in my sumo career" - a move regretted by many fans. It would not be surprising if he had already left the Taganoura stable to establish "Araiso-beya" and start fostering disciples. Yet, there is not sign of this happening at all.

The only thing that stands out about what he is doing now is him training his younger stablemate Takayasu, and his chatty commentary, as if he were a different person from his silent active days. It is not difficult to see how some annoyed by this, saying, "Enough is enough!".

In contrast to Araiso Oyakata, Hakuho, who is regarded as a rival even after his intai, is well-prepared for retirement. He already has several apprentices, including the popular Enho and Ishiura.

On April 10, Mukainakano Shingo, a mainstay player at Tottori Johoku High School, announced his intention to join Miyagino-beya. He is also Hakuho's apprentice and it is said that [Hakuho] has already secured a place to start his own stable, so he can start training apprentices as soon as he retires.

While he is far behind Hakuho in terms of the number of championships won, Araiso Oyakata is also a step or two behind Hakuho. It is inevitable that he will fall behind Hakuho at this point. The cries "Rise up, Kisenosato!" are only getting louder.

[Yamanashi]

45 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

Should a foreign born oyakata emphasize the multiplicity of his identity and a cosmopolitan view independent from Japanese tradition and spiritual characteristics, it is not ensured that he can teach a rikishi who doesn't fully understand the heart of sumo about 'What is sumo' and 'What is the heart of Japan and sumo' "

And yet ... Kotooshu/Naruto was an (unofficial?) "cultural ambassador for Bulgaria" while a member of NSK.  Tochinoshin, while still a sekitori, has taken part in bilateral feel-good PR campaigns between Georgian and Japanese groups (I will leave it to our Brit posters as to whether these rise to the level of Quango-dom).  Obviously, there is a spectrum of activities with (see above re: Japanese society) no clear lines between acceptable and unacceptable behavior.  For the time being, Naruto can ply his heya with Bulgarian brand yogurt, and Tomozuna can presumably take his minions out to a Mongolian helmet grill restaurant, without being accused of cultural nostalgia.  But where is this mystical dividing line?

[Swami]

6 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

You are completely entitled to your own opinion, and I fully respect that, but I do think that some of your qualifying statements are little simplistic. Firstly, I agree that the current and recent level of competition has been rather lacklustre and that has certainly allowed Hakuho to artificially extend his career due to the lack of challengers. However, I think we would be doing long retired rikishi a disservice if we think the competition has remained lacklustre the entire time. Hakuho had to fight very talented, experienced or even record-breaking rikishi (i.e. Asashoryu, Kaio, Tochiazuma, Chiyotaikai, Kotomitsuki) in his early career, and other rikishi (i.e. Kisenosato, Harumafuji, Kakuryu) in his middle career. Getting a yusho, especially when one mistake can make you lose everything (see Kisenosato) in that environment sure doesn't look like winter wonderland to me. 44 yusho and especially 22 jun-yusho doesn't look like a fluke to me. Sure, many of them are Mongolians, but I do not see how that means that the competition was weak. The Mongolians aren't part of the same stable by very design, and they had to fight each other anyways. That in fact means more competition, and not less. 

I disagree completely, and especially because arguably the main reason in training standards dropping is that the average weight of the rikishi has risen so much in the last 25 years or so.  Look at the decline in what were once fairly common techniques, tsuridashi is now virtually a rarity in the sekitori ranks.  And were it not for the likes of Enho and Tobizaru, leg/tripping techniques have almost disappeared.  Certainly Kisenosato was extremely unlucky, having finally got promoted after so many attempts, to then suffer an injury which ultimately proved career-ending.  But you could argue, just like Hakuho now, that the likes of Kaio and Chiyotaikai went on far too long, simply because there wasn't enough competition keeping them on their toes.  A lot of the rot set in with Asashoryu, though more so with his character and frequent lack of respect.

6 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

That leads to the second point that while the recent and current crop does demonstrate that quality of training/coaching is rather poor, the great rikishi we've seen in the past demonstrate that this was not the case before. It could be the increasing reliance on oshi-zumo at the expense of teaching yotsu-zumo, or simply because there are fewer children in Japan, and thus even fewer that want to take up sumo in the first place, thus lesser demand for such teaching. And besides, are we really going to hold Hakuho accountable for not boosting the training/coaching level of amasumo rikishi up and down the country? I don't think so. 

In relation this I would agree that coaches are undoubtedly having more and more difficulty recruiting, for sure incidents like the Tokitsukaze hazing scandal  deter parents from having their children enter sumo, in the same way that head injuries from repeated concussions are putting children off playing rugby at the moment.

6 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

And thirdly, I disagree that he's treated the yokozuna rank like a public convenience - he's never gone kyujo for more than 8 straight years as a yokozuna. I do agree that he's has had the pattern of going in and out of tournaments for the last 6 years of his career and that July should be time for him to go if he doesn't perform, but his record since 2015 (arguably when he started going downhill) is still better than most rikishi or even yokozuna's careers. His repeated statements, especially the religious implications of the rank, his charity efforts (i.e. doing dohyo-iri for those affected by earthquakes and tsunamis and even financially supporting other rikishi) and his support for amasumo like the Hakuho Cup, which has yielded very good rikishi like Onosho, and up-and-comers (Yoshii, Hokuseiho, Mukainakano, etc.) in the lower divisions definitely show that he understands and has fulfilled, in some areas better than Taiho and Chiyonofuji in my opinion, the responsibilities of the rank. In terms of coaching, he's ahead of Taiho in creating sekitori, and on track to beat Chiyonofuji too, in my opinion. While it might be unfair to compare this in the case of Taiho due to his early illness, I do not really see such adjustments being made in your argument. 

I disagree on this one, if Hakuho had any shame, he would have retired at least 18 months or 2 years ago.  So what if he recruited Hokuseiho?  Most yokozuna at the end of their careers have probably scouted rikishi.  If Hakuho can't make it through the first week of July and doesn't quit, he should be ordered to quit.  Unfortunately he has set a precedent with his non-stop withdrawals and has been allowed to get away with it.  As I said before, I simply wouldn't mention him in the same breath as Taiho, Chiyonofuji, Kitanoumi, Futabayama.

6 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

And for example, in his long years as Kokonoe-oyakata, Chiyonofuji has only recruited 3! rikishi from Hokkaido, none of whom have reached great prominence. It cannot be that the talent has suddenly evaporated - part of it is because perhaps Japanese yokozunas are not as proactive in talent cultivation and recruiting (though of course there are very famous exceptions like Isegahama-oyakata and most importantly the Japanese oyakata that brought the Mongolians in the first place). Hokuseiho for instance, is from a Mongolian family, but has lived in Hokkaido as a small child, and his shusshin is listed as such. He quit Tottori because he had a mental block, and without Hakuho's urging during a jungyo there later in the year we would not be seeing him in sumo today, and we might have lost a great talent. Such qualities should also be included in the discussion of who is the greatest yokozuna of all time. 

I think judgement needs to be reserved on Hokuseiho, time will tell to see how far he goes, quite a few have breezed through the lower divisions only to stall.  I'm not entirely convinced that he is the big hope.

6 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

And by the way, I strongly disagree that there are 'foreigners' fast-tracked to the top - they tend to start at 18 after high school and from the bottom same as anyone else, and go through the same system. If they go through quickly, that's due to their own efforts. Your statement also ignores fast Japanese risers like Yoshii, Ofukasawa, Tokisakae. If anything, those that are getting tsukidashi status are primarily Japanese because they are university students, and there's no problem with that in my opinion. And I don't understand how fast foreign risers make rikishi less likely to listen to their oyakata. One must certainly ask the question if these oyakata are to be strictly followed in the first place and the fact that oyakata antics are increasingly exposed to the general public and people aren't just gonna take it anymore. 

I don't agree with sycophants that Hakuho should be 100% praised, and his faults and errors should always be called out. But I think he still deserves fair consideration. 

Even before Hakuho's really bare-faced process of withdrawing from tournaments in the last couple of years, I always thought him grossly over-rated.  And while much more respectful than Asashoryu ever was, I'd never consider him amongst the greatest yokozuna.  I do agree though that the Kyokai needs to look at standards of coaching and while I wouldn't advocate weight limits, I think much consideration needs to be given to the fact that rikishi are much larger on the whole, less mobile and consequently training suffers.

 

Swami

[pricklypomegranate]

34 minutes ago, Swami said:

I disagree completely, and especially because arguably the main reason in training standards dropping is that the average weight of the rikishi has risen so much in the last 25 years or so.  Look at the decline in what were once fairly common techniques, tsuridashi is now virtually a rarity in the sekitori ranks.  And were it not for the likes of Enho and Tobizaru, leg/tripping techniques have almost disappeared.  Certainly Kisenosato was extremely unlucky, having finally got promoted after so many attempts, to then suffer an injury which ultimately proved career-ending.  But you could argue, just like Hakuho now, that the likes of Kaio and Chiyotaikai went on far too long, simply because there wasn't enough competition keeping them on their toes.  A lot of the rot set in with Asashoryu, though more so with his character and frequent lack of respect.

I agree that the increasingly numbers of small rikishi mean that leg techniques like ashitori are becoming increasingly frequent. But a cursory survey of Enho and Tobizaru's matches would reveal that they do not use tripping techniques. Mainoumi even lamented the former's lack of knowledge and skill in this area. Trips have recently been the preserve of Mongolian yokozuna. And yes, the weight has increased, but weight itself can be a difficulty because rikishi are getting increasingly hard to manoeuvre - that's the core strategy of many rikishi. And instead of looking at it from the lens of competition, these rikishi's longevity, especially against much younger, lively opponents do attest to their skill and experience does it not? To me, that coupled with Asashoryu's 'rot' doesn't really reduce their worth as rikishi to me. I would think that with Taiho's gun-smuggling, Futabayama's cult practices and Takanohana's family drama are also quite bad - the rot doesn't just start with Asashoryu. 

34 minutes ago, Swami said:

I disagree on this one, if Hakuho had any shame, he would have retired at least 18 months or 2 years ago.  So what if he recruited Hokuseiho?  Most yokozuna at the end of their careers have probably scouted rikishi.  If Hakuho can't make it through the first week of July and doesn't quit, he should be ordered to quit.  Unfortunately he has set a precedent with his non-stop withdrawals and has been allowed to get away with it.  As I said before, I simply wouldn't mention him in the same breath as Taiho, Chiyonofuji, Kitanoumi, Futabayama.

He indeed would have been gone a year ago, should the coronavirus not have happened - that's not exactly his fault. And it's quite unreasonable for ask someone to give up their long cherished goal because the worldwide pandemic which they had zero control over wrecked everything. And he had been winning yusho and posting decent results until very, very recently. Indeed, many yokozuna at the end of their careers scouted rikishi, but very few, if none, have produced sekitori, especially of such prominence, while active. And non-stop withdrawals already started with Kisenosato, and even if you use the argument that he was a newly minted yokozuna and thus deserving of greater grace, he was (1) an aging rikishi and (2) there's the Takanohana case, where he literally broke kyujo records. 

34 minutes ago, Swami said:

I think judgement needs to be reserved on Hokuseiho, time will tell to see how far he goes, quite a few have breezed through the lower divisions only to stall.  I'm not entirely convinced that he is the big hope.

He might not be the next dai-yokozuna. But you cannot deny that he is a great talent. And while his tachiai is still subpar and he is still reliant on his size and strength to win, he demonstrated great resolve in winning 5-2 despite snapping his only chance at Jokoryu's record. Cultivating someone that he merely chanced upon, and then motivating him to begin sumo again demonstrates that he has good coaching skills, which should, amongst other traits, boost estimation of Hakuho, despite his bad traits. I think his bad outweighs his good, but that''s just my opinion of course. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by pricklypomegranate

[Tsuchinoninjin]

50 minutes ago, Swami said:

 

I disagree on this one, if Hakuho had any shame, he would have retired at least 18 months or 2 years ago.  So what if he recruited Hokuseiho?  Most yokozuna at the end of their careers have probably scouted rikishi.  If Hakuho can't make it through the first week of July and doesn't quit, he should be ordered to quit.  Unfortunately he has set a precedent with his non-stop withdrawals and has been allowed to get away with it.  As I said before, I simply wouldn't mention him in the same breath as Taiho, Chiyonofuji, Kitanoumi, Futabayama.

Woah woah woah, Hakuho set the precedent? Really?

Find the Hakuho from among the last few yokozuna who haven't been bounced out:

Here's a hint: Hakuho's last yusho is still more recent than any of those guys last yusho from their retirement date.

And this doesn't even been to cover the discussion that Hakuho would have been gone from the dohyo last year if the Olympics had kicked off.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Tsuchinoninjin

[WAKATAKE]

1 hour ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

Woah woah woah, Hakuho set the precedent? Really?

Find the Hakuho from among the last few yokozuna who haven't been bounced out:

Here's a hint: Hakuho's last yusho is still more recent than any of those guys last yusho from their retirement date.

And this doesn't even been to cover the discussion that Hakuho would have been gone from the dohyo last year if the Olympics had kicked off.

If I was playing "Find the Hakuho" from these listings without looking at the database, they should be the following:

- Kisenosato
- Kakuryu
- Hakuho
- Musashimaru
- Takanohana

Am I right?

[Swami]

1 hour ago, pricklypomegranate said:

I agree that the increasingly numbers of small rikishi mean that leg techniques like ashitori are becoming increasingly frequent. But a cursory survey of Enho and Tobizaru's matches would reveal that they do not use tripping techniques. Mainoumi even lamented the former's lack of knowledge and skill in this area. Trips have recently been the preserve of Mongolian yokozuna. And yes, the weight has increased, but weight itself can be a difficulty because rikishi are getting increasingly hard to manoeuvre - that's the core strategy of many rikishi. And instead of looking at it from the lens of competition, these rikishi's longevity, especially against much younger, lively opponents do attest to their skill and experience does it not? To me, that coupled with Asashoryu's 'rot' doesn't really reduce their worth as rikishi to me. I would think that with Taiho's gun-smuggling, Futabayama's cult practices and Takanohana's family drama are also quite bad - the rot doesn't just start with Asashoryu. 

True, the whole Futagoyama thing goes back to the Fujishima/Futagoyama merger - at that time, surely it would have been a better option to, as evenly as possible, distribute the rikishi around the ichimon's heya.  As was said around the time of the Futahaguro debacle, it was suggested that future generations would be less likely to meekly acquiesce to their elders, so perhaps it was inevitable that some of the issues, that sumo has had to face in the last 20 years or so, have cropped up.  

1 hour ago, pricklypomegranate said:

He indeed would have been gone a year ago, should the coronavirus not have happened - that's not exactly his fault. And it's quite unreasonable for ask someone to give up their long cherished goal because the worldwide pandemic which they had zero control over wrecked everything. And he had been winning yusho and posting decent results until very, very recently. Indeed, many yokozuna at the end of their careers scouted rikishi, but very few, if none, have produced sekitori, especially of such prominence, while active. And non-stop withdrawals already started with Kisenosato, and even if you use the argument that he was a newly minted yokozuna and thus deserving of greater grace, he was (1) an aging rikishi and (2) there's the Takanohana case, where he literally broke kyujo records. 

He might not be the next dai-yokozuna. But you cannot deny that he is a great talent. And while his tachiai is still subpar and he is still reliant on his size and strength to win, he demonstrated great resolve in winning 5-2 despite snapping his only chance at Jokoryu's record. Cultivating someone that he merely chanced upon, and then motivating him to begin sumo again demonstrates that he has good coaching skills, which should, amongst other traits, boost estimation of Hakuho, despite his bad traits. I think his bad outweighs his good, but that''s just my opinion of course. 

Although Kitanoumi was the first one with several absences in his decline before his retirement, it was not until 1990 when Onokuni had a long lay-off following a broken ankle in the Hatsu Basho that we saw such a long kyujo.  Then, as you say, came Takanohana.  I agree he probably should have retired perhaps six months before he did, in his case I think it was, similar to Kitanoumi, he arrived at the top at a very early age, burning out early as a result.  Re Kisenosato, yes he clearly was given a bit of leeway given the unluckiness of being hit by injury just after promotion, but I think after the fourth withdrawal, they should have said "either win or retire".  It went on too long.

 

Swami

[Tsuchinoninjin]

10 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

If I was playing "Find the Hakuho" from these listings without looking at the database, they should be the following:

- Kisenosato
- Kakuryu
- Hakuho
- Musashimaru
- Takanohana

Am I right?

Yes, totally correct! Actually I notice now its easy to identify Kakuryu, he's the only one who just retired without even giving a token attempt at a basho. Wonder if that is trivia bits worthy.

Yokozuna staying on a bit longer helps out in a few ways. Helps out the oyakata to prepare the reduction in heya income, helps out the kyokai to plan that big severance package. Really Hakuho retiring now is kind of a pain considering the kyokai's finances.

[Asashosakari]

On 24/04/2021 at 17:31, pricklypomegranate said:

Well. You say that. But there is trouble in paradise. Here's my translation of the text, feel free to correct me if I am wrong: [snip]

Not sure what point that article is trying to make. Outside of superfans nobody cares about oyakatas' recruiting prowess, and for their respective executive careers the only thing that might matter for Hakuho and Kisenosato is that they have a stable, not how successful it is.

[itchyknee]

On 19/04/2021 at 13:51, Seiyashi said:

The rules lawyer in me finds this actually a convenient loophole against the recommendation. So if the problem with the ichidai-toshiyori is the lack of succession, fix it by making ichidai-toshiyori-class yokozuna shikona heritable as new kabu! Problem solved.

Sadly, I don't think the board will have the unanimity to do that, because it would be the equivalent of sticking a middle finger to the committee.

 

On 19/04/2021 at 14:58, Gurowake said:

I don't know what operating agreement the NSK operates under with respect to new shareholders, but I suspect it might not just require the board's approval, but the approval of all the shareholders. Perhaps only a majority, but generally shareholders have to approve their ownership being diluted.  With Ichidai toshiyori, the lack of permanence wouldn't require such approval.  Of course, I'm probably viewing this way too much from a Western business perspective, when the organization of the NSK is probably entirely unlike any Western organization type.  Calling the kabu shares of stock might be a gross mistranslation in that sense.

Academia has a system of "endowed chairs" where a rich person (typically) donates a lot of money to a school, and the interest pays for the new professorship (in whole or in part). The NSK could make bank on such an idea. I'm sure there have been enough fans of particular Yokozuna to have endowed a new permanent kabu in their honor.

[Yamanashi]

1 hour ago, itchyknee said:

 

Academia has a system of "endowed chairs" where a rich person (typically) donates a lot of money to a school, and the interest pays for the new professorship (in whole or in part). The NSK could make bank on such an idea. I'm sure there have been enough fans of particular Yokozuna to have endowed a new permanent kabu in their honor.

Does anybody have an idea of the yearly income they'd need to fund a kabu?  What about a kabu with heya?  Using the standard multipliers for similar endowments in Japan, one could figure out what the whole nut would be to permanently endow one.

[I would have mixed feelings about the introduction of, say, ex-Mitakeumi as "Yamazaki-Oyakata, brought to you by Suntory."]

[Seiyashi]

48 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

2 hours ago, itchyknee said:

 

Academia has a system of "endowed chairs" where a rich person (typically) donates a lot of money to a school, and the interest pays for the new professorship (in whole or in part). The NSK could make bank on such an idea. I'm sure there have been enough fans of particular Yokozuna to have endowed a new permanent kabu in their honor.

Does anybody have an idea of the yearly income they'd need to fund a kabu?  What about a kabu with heya?  Using the standard multipliers for similar endowments in Japan, one could figure out what the whole nut would be to permanently endow one.

[I would have mixed feelings about the introduction of, say, ex-Mitakeumi as "Yamazaki-Oyakata, brought to you by Suntory."]

Let's say you take the typical oyakata salary, which is out there? But then I assume that the pay also varies with rank, so perhaps the interest has to be enough, on a yearly basis, to fund the average of an oyakata's salary.

A heya can be funded with its own koenkai, which lowers somewhat the barrier to entry there. I'm not sure how rikishi koenkai morph to heya koenkai when a successful sekitori opens his own heya, but I imagine that even if there is no clear legal succession, there would be significant overlaps in membership.

[Churaumi]

It would help that rikishi and oyakata careers transition instantly and there is no break in between for fans to lose interest. It would just be a matter of keeping the koenkai fan base energized enough to keep giving, which is probably a matter of maintaining face time with fans and being successful. 

I think the problem of endowing kabu would be the lack of a limit would cause the same problems as it does everywhere else, in that we'd have more "do-nothing" oyakata that would clog up the system. Maybe if it were limited to rikishi with stratospheric accomplishments? Such as a certain threshold of yusho, matches, wins, etc?

[Yamanashi]

8 minutes ago, Churaumi said:

It would help that rikishi and oyakata careers transition instantly and there is no break in between for fans to lose interest. It would just be a matter of keeping the koenkai fan base energized enough to keep giving, which is probably a matter of maintaining face time with fans and being successful. 

I think the problem of endowing kabu would be the lack of a limit would cause the same problems as it does everywhere else, in that we'd have more "do-nothing" oyakata that would clog up the system. Maybe if it were limited to rikishi with stratospheric accomplishments? Such as a certain threshold of yusho, matches, wins, etc?

Well, they have a (fuzzy) criterion for entering the brotherhood already.  Also, the "stratospheric accomplishments" candidates probably aren't the ones who need to carve out a kabu or heya, since they are often being courted to take over a position, often at their home heya.

[Churaumi]

1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

 since they are often being courted to take over a position, often at their home heya.

I was thinking more in the terms of creating new kabu, for those super performers. If a rikishi's supporters were willing to fund a kabu in the ichidai toshiyori sense, there would have to be some threshold of greatness so that not every popular rikishi ends up being ichidai toshiyori. As for them being in line to take over stables, that isn't always the case. And, it may not be with an ichidai toshiyori shikona. 

[Yamanashi]

6 hours ago, Churaumi said:

I was thinking more in the terms of creating new kabu, for those super performers. If a rikishi's supporters were willing to fund a kabu in the ichidai toshiyori sense, there would have to be some threshold of greatness so that not every popular rikishi ends up being ichidai toshiyori. As for them being in line to take over stables, that isn't always the case. And, it may not be with an ichidai toshiyori shikona. 

I get your point, but would getting a new kabu be more appealing than procuring one of the ancient and revered ones, which means that the new kabu would either go toma "1A" level retiree or a rikishi with a high level of popularity (Ura??).  I'm not too sure of the latter, but the former might work.

[Inside Sport Japan]

On 24/04/2021 at 23:50, Akinomaki said:

A foreigner grown up and integrated in Japanese culture is not treated as a foreigner at all. 

Just to clarify, you are talking in the narrow sense of how they are listed on the banzuke right? 

 

[Akinomaki]

17 minutes ago, Inside Sport Japan said:

Just to clarify, you are talking in the narrow sense of how they are listed on the banzuke right? 

Of course, treated by the NSK as of Japanese shusshin, banzuke and otherwise, announced on the dohyo etc. It's already a different matter how the NSK members as persons feel about it. If for something else the Japanese nationality is required and the youth doesn't have it yet, he'll be treated differently as well.

So don't quote that comment out of context