Ichidai toshiyori no more?

[Godango]

1 hour ago, John Gunning said:

My take on the report

Thanks John.

You mentioned the outcry -- is that purely referencing online global fans, or are Japanese fans also unhappy about this? I assume the former.

[dada78641]

I don't get posts that say "don't delude yourself into thinking you have any input in this." As if that's a smart thing to say that nobody thought of yet. Like, ...yeah? We know?

The only thing that's happened is that sumo fans here and elsewhere are rightly mad about this decision, rightly calling it out as a slap in the face to the greatest yokozuna ever, and rightly pointing out this is just another example of the foreigner-hostile conservatism in sumo, a sport where the wrestlers are subject to the whims of a few old guys at the top and have no way of fighting for their own rights in the sport.

There's no need to remind anyone that foreign sumo fans have no agency in the matter. Just let people say what they want instead of dismissing any notion of discussion as pointless. That kind of fatalism is just stupid.

Edited April 22, 2021 by dada78641

[Karasukurai]

If an aspect of your culture is racist then that aspect should not be cherished and preserved. If an aspect of your culture is misogynistic then that aspect should not be cherished and preserved. If an aspect of your culture is sexist or elitist or undemocratic or xenophobic or wilfully disregards the safety of those who operate within it, then those aspects of your culture should not be cherished and preserved.

As was mentioned in a previous post, the JSA is happy to divert from 'cultural tradition' when it's advantageous to them to do so. Don't tell me they do these things due to 'cultural tradition', they do them because they want to and it suits them. The JSA and the Committee (for whatever crap), 'a pox on both your houses'.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Karasukurai

[nagora]

17 hours ago, Karasukurai said:

If an aspect of your culture is sexist or elitist or undemocratic or xenophobic

The whole idea of serious sport is elitist and undemocratic. A competition is literally intended to find the elite. And, of course, the vast majority of sports are sexually segregated.

I agree that the xenophobia aspect should be stamped out but if you don't like elitism then you've come to the wrong place. The people who make these decisions are largely the very people the sport has picked out as elites - ex-sekitori, as I understand it.

It's seems that there's a lot going on here - some (maybe quite a lot) settling of old grudges about past behaviour seems mixed in with a general assumed background noise of xenophobia and perhaps some people who genuinely did not like the idea of ichidai toshiyori no matter who was in line for it. I don't think it's all one thing.

[RabidJohn]

I'm from the UK, where the courts have determined on multiple occasions that the police and armed forces are "institutionally racist", but they're not a patch on our former colonial cousins across the pond. The West is rife with xenophobia, so it strikes me there's a danger of glasshouse stone-throwing here.

However, there's also the other end of the spectrum, like supporting your national sports teams or giving iconic foodstuffs or beverages 'protected status'. 

Why is it wrong of the Japanese to want to provide ozumo with protected status? I got into sumo because it's Japanese, so I don't have a problem with that. 

Don't get me wrong. I can well understand why so many are up in impotent arms about Hakuho not getting the ichidai toshiyori he clearly deserves when his record stands more than head and shoulders above the best of the rest. I can also understand why the Kyokai wants to bring him down a peg or two before he enters their ranks.

 

[Karasukurai]

3 hours ago, nagora said:

The whole idea of serious sport is elitist and undemocratic

I never mentioned sport in my post at all. But thank you, that, in a sense, is the problem. To some sumo is sport, to others it's culture, even an aspect of religion. The committee that presented the report seems to be concerned to some extent with the cultural aspect of sumo and how to 'preserve' it'. My point being that culture & tradition is not some perfect thing, it's flawed, often nebulous, not some halcyon time or fixed ideal that we all need to get back to. The JSA, now with their little advisory committee to justify their actions or non-action, will continue to use 'culture & tradition' as an excuse to simply do what they like.

Anyway, how do you measure adequate cultural assimilation? Who's wielding the measuring stick? What's the benchmark?  ALL cultures & traditions have unfortunate elements (not just Japan's, my own culture is full of nasty crap). To justify anything on the basis of culture & tradition leads ultimately down a rabbit hole. Ideas based around the 'dilution of culture' scares me because it always ends up in terms of 'us' and 'them'.

Perhaps foreigners have been a little too successful in Sumo and it's time to curb that success? Close the door, just a little? 'Culture' literally the key?

[Asashosakari]

3 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I'm from the UK, where the courts have determined on multiple occasions that the police and armed forces are "institutionally racist", but they're not a patch on our former colonial cousins across the pond. The West is rife with xenophobia, so it strikes me there's a danger of glasshouse stone-throwing here.

Yeah, that's also a thing. Thankfully it's very rare here on the forum, but elsewhere it's quite commonplace that foreign "fans" who act as self-appointed crusaders against the sumo world's issues with racism and xenophobia are just as bad as what they claim to criticize, their diatribes dripping with "you just can't expect these weird yellow men to run their sport properly the way we'd know how to do, amirite?" attitude.

[Karasukurai]

3 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

foreign "fans" who act as self-appointed crusaders against the sumo world's issues with racism and xenophobia are just as bad as what they claim to criticize

You are absolutely right - the West especially has so many of these issues, as I alluded to in my previous post. Nasty stuff, getting worse too especially in my own country, shameful. Not sure the argument that you can only call out wrongdoing in your own neighbourhood works though, surely you can do both?

The Ichidai toshiyori story has certainly enraged the Hak fans on the boards - personally I think he's big enough to look after himself. I'm not sure the outrage is about general unfairness or because it's Hakuho. (Yes, there are Hak fans - who'd have known? I was surprised too).

Still, us foreigners, often confused about Sumo, thinking of it merely as a sport, that's where we make our mistake. We don't understand it. I genuinely look forward to see how the Japanese sort out 'sumo world's issues'.

Right, I'm off to give that Greta Thunberg a mouthful, that kid needs to sort out the issues in Sweden before she starts on the rest of the world.

[Yamanashi]

Maybe it's always an overgeneralization to say "the Japanese feel this" or "Germans are this way" or "my country behaves in this manner".  I doubt that all Japanese think of Sumo as a traditional, nay even a Shinto performance.  The evidence is that younger Japanese citizens don't think of Sumo at all.

Regarding how the NSK looks at foreigners, I'd like to know: how many foreigners have been kicked out of Ozumo for not following tradition?  I'm new to Sumo, so I don't know of any, but clearly there has been pressure in certain cases for a rikishi to leave Sumo "on his own".  So the rules don't seem very clear, do they?

[Kintamayama]

17 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

 

Regarding how the NSK looks at foreigners, I'd like to know: how many foreigners have been kicked out of Ozumo for not following tradition?  I'm new to Sumo, so I don't know of any, but clearly there has been pressure in certain cases for a rikishi to leave Sumo "on his own".  So the rules don't seem very clear, do they?

Oosunaarashi. Asashouryuu, Rohou, Hakurozan, Harumafuji, to name a few.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Kintamayama

[Tsuchinoninjin]

3 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Maybe it's always an overgeneralization to say "the Japanese feel this" or "Germans are this way" or "my country behaves in this manner".  I doubt that all Japanese think of Sumo as a traditional, nay even a Shinto performance.  The evidence is that younger Japanese citizens don't think of Sumo at all.

When the Harumafuji thing was going down I asked a guy at the office what he thought about it, and he basically said, 'Those sumo guys are a bunch of weirdos just trying to be weirder than the next guy, everyone expects them to be strange.' So yeah, not everyone is a fan.

[Benevolance]

I'm not familiar with Hakurozan, but the rest also involved *not following the law*. 

[Joaoiyama]

3 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

 

Regarding how the NSK looks at foreigners, I'd like to know: how many foreigners have been kicked out of Ozumo for not following tradition?  I'm new to Sumo, so I don't know of any, but clearly there has been pressure in certain cases for a rikishi to leave Sumo "on his own".  So the rules don't seem very clear, do they?

 

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

Oosunaarashi. Asashouryuu, Rohou, Hakurozan, Harumafuji, to name a few.

On another note, how many Japanese-born scandals could have been swept under the rug?

[Yamanashi]

3 hours ago, Benevolance said:

I'm not familiar with Hakurozan, but the rest also involved *not following the law*. 

That's how I see it, too.  Now, if you want to talk about the difference between the way a foreigner would be treated and, say, how Abi was treated, let's do it.

[Swami]

7 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Oosunaarashi. Asashouryuu, Rohou, Hakurozan, Harumafuji, to name a few.

You could also include Nankairyu who left before he most likely would have been pushed.  

 

Swami

[Swami]

6 hours ago, Joaoiyama said:

 

On another note, how many Japanese-born scandals could have been swept under the rug?

Certainly not Wajima and Futahaguro.

I'm possibly in a minority, but I think a lot of the criticism of Hakuho has been justified.  He has rattled up records in an era where the level of competition has been woefully poor, probably its worst ever, with a preponderance of Mongolians, but also the quality of training/coaching is very poor.  Also take into consideration the way he has treated the rank of yokozuna like a public convenience these past years  - in and out of tournaments like a revolving door - , and it is nothing short of a joke for him to be constantly described as the greatest.  He isn't fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Taiho and Chiyonofuji.

If I was in the Kyokai's position I wouldn't award him ichidai toshiyori.

At the same time, the Kyokai needs to look at their difficulties in recruiting - why for instance is there so few rikishi from Hokkaido, for so long the hotbed of so many great rikishi? The sight of so many foreigners being fast-tracked to the top, intentionally or otherwise, is bound to be deterring youngsters who are less likely to acquiesce to authority than previous generations.

 

Swami

[Kintamayama]

1 hour ago, Swami said:

The sight of so many foreigners being fast-tracked to the top, intentionally or otherwise,

 

Please explain this.

[Kintamayama]

7 hours ago, Joaoiyama said:

 

On another note, how many Japanese-born scandals could have been swept under the rug?

That wasn't the question, so it's not the answer to that question either.

[Kintamayama]

7 hours ago, Benevolance said:

I'm not familiar with Hakurozan, but the rest also involved *not following the law*. 

The rest (excluding Harumafuji) were never "towing the line" and were kicked out because it was the last straw. Asashouryuu, Rohou  (the near brawl with Chiyotaikai), Oosunaarashi getting married without permission, etc etc. and I probably forgot some others. Of course, we also have Kyokutenhou, Kotooushuu, Asasekiryuu , Soukokurai the wronged et al who are exemplary foreign-born figures. 

[Kintamayama]

4 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

That's how I see it, too.  Now, if you want to talk about the difference between the way a foreigner would be treated and, say, how Abi was treated, let's do it.

What do you think is the difference? Let's do it.

[Swami]

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Please explain this.

Only from the point of view that in the majority of cases they enter sumo at least two or three years older than traditional recruits.  Despite the cultural difficulties, that is quite a head-start. If they can overcome language barriers, size and strength in theory can speed up the rise through the ranks.

 

I should also say I don't think Takanohana should have been granted ichidai toshiyori, primarily because for the bulk of his career they were having to drop down to maegashira 8/9 for opponents due to the vast numbers of Makunouchi rikishi in Futagoyama Beya (after it merged with Fujishima).  Contrast his tournament draws with Akebono, there was some difference.

 

Swami

[pricklypomegranate]

8 hours ago, Swami said:

I'm possibly in a minority, but I think a lot of the criticism of Hakuho has been justified.  He has rattled up records in an era where the level of competition has been woefully poor, probably its worst ever, with a preponderance of Mongolians, but also the quality of training/coaching is very poor.  Also take into consideration the way he has treated the rank of yokozuna like a public convenience these past years  - in and out of tournaments like a revolving door - , and it is nothing short of a joke for him to be constantly described as the greatest.  He isn't fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Taiho and Chiyonofuji.

If I was in the Kyokai's position I wouldn't award him ichidai toshiyori.

At the same time, the Kyokai needs to look at their difficulties in recruiting - why for instance is there so few rikishi from Hokkaido, for so long the hotbed of so many great rikishi? The sight of so many foreigners being fast-tracked to the top, intentionally or otherwise, is bound to be deterring youngsters who are less likely to acquiesce to authority than previous generations.

You are completely entitled to your own opinion, and I fully respect that, but I do think that some of your qualifying statements are little simplistic. Firstly, I agree that the current and recent level of competition has been rather lacklustre and that has certainly allowed Hakuho to artificially extend his career due to the lack of challengers. However, I think we would be doing long retired rikishi a disservice if we think the competition has remained lacklustre the entire time. Hakuho had to fight very talented, experienced or even record-breaking rikishi (i.e. Asashoryu, Kaio, Tochiazuma, Chiyotaikai, Kotomitsuki) in his early career, and other rikishi (i.e. Kisenosato, Harumafuji, Kakuryu) in his middle career. Getting a yusho, especially when one mistake can make you lose everything (see Kisenosato) in that environment sure doesn't look like winter wonderland to me. 44 yusho and especially 22 jun-yusho doesn't look like a fluke to me. Sure, many of them are Mongolians, but I do not see how that means that the competition was weak. The Mongolians aren't part of the same stable by very design, and they had to fight each other anyways. That in fact means more competition, and not less. 

That leads to the second point that while the recent and current crop does demonstrate that quality of training/coaching is rather poor, the great rikishi we've seen in the past demonstrate that this was not the case before. It could be the increasing reliance on oshi-zumo at the expense of teaching yotsu-zumo, or simply because there are fewer children in Japan, and thus even fewer that want to take up sumo in the first place, thus lesser demand for such teaching. And besides, are we really going to hold Hakuho accountable for not boosting the training/coaching level of amasumo rikishi up and down the country? I don't think so. 

And thirdly, I disagree that he's treated the yokozuna rank like a public convenience - he's never gone kyujo for more than 8 straight years as a yokozuna. I do agree that he's has had the pattern of going in and out of tournaments for the last 6 years of his career and that July should be time for him to go if he doesn't perform, but his record since 2015 (arguably when he started going downhill) is still better than most rikishi or even yokozuna's careers. His repeated statements, especially the religious implications of the rank, his charity efforts (i.e. doing dohyo-iri for those affected by earthquakes and tsunamis and even financially supporting other rikishi) and his support for amasumo like the Hakuho Cup, which has yielded very good rikishi like Onosho, and up-and-comers (Yoshii, Hokuseiho, Mukainakano, etc.) in the lower divisions definitely show that he understands and has fulfilled, in some areas better than Taiho and Chiyonofuji in my opinion, the responsibilities of the rank. In terms of coaching, he's ahead of Taiho in creating sekitori, and on track to beat Chiyonofuji too, in my opinion. While it might be unfair to compare this in the case of Taiho due to his early illness, I do not really see such adjustments being made in your argument. 

And for example, in his long years as Kokonoe-oyakata, Chiyonofuji has only recruited 3! rikishi from Hokkaido, none of whom have reached great prominence. It cannot be that the talent has suddenly evaporated - part of it is because perhaps Japanese yokozunas are not as proactive in talent cultivation and recruiting (though of course there are very famous exceptions like Isegahama-oyakata and most importantly the Japanese oyakata that brought the Mongolians in the first place). Hokuseiho for instance, is from a Mongolian family, but has lived in Hokkaido as a small child, and his shusshin is listed as such. He quit Tottori because he had a mental block, and without Hakuho's urging during a jungyo there later in the year we would not be seeing him in sumo today, and we might have lost a great talent. Such qualities should also be included in the discussion of who is the greatest yokozuna of all time. 

And by the way, I strongly disagree that there are 'foreigners' fast-tracked to the top - they tend to start at 18 after high school and from the bottom same as anyone else, and go through the same system. If they go through quickly, that's due to their own efforts. Your statement also ignores fast Japanese risers like Yoshii, Ofukasawa, Tokisakae. If anything, those that are getting tsukidashi status are primarily Japanese because they are university students, and there's no problem with that in my opinion. And I don't understand how fast foreign risers make rikishi less likely to listen to their oyakata. One must certainly ask the question if these oyakata are to be strictly followed in the first place and the fact that oyakata antics are increasingly exposed to the general public and people aren't just gonna take it anymore. 

I don't agree with sycophants that Hakuho should be 100% praised, and his faults and errors should always be called out. But I think he still deserves fair consideration. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by pricklypomegranate

[nagora]

3 hours ago, Swami said:

He isn't fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Taiho and Chiyonofuji.

As a Chiyonofuji fan I feel you overreached your argument here.

Hakuho is a long way from the summit now, but that summit was Everest.

[Joaoiyama]

5 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

That wasn't the question, so it's not the answer to that question either.

You answered his question, i made a question of my own. 

*On another note*
Don't you think for any "foreign-born" rikishi scandal, there could have been as many Japanese-born scandals not exposed? 

[Stupidface]

7 hours ago, Swami said:

Certainly not Wajima and Futahaguro.

I'm possibly in a minority, but I think a lot of the criticism of Hakuho has been justified.  He has rattled up records in an era where the level of competition has been woefully poor, probably its worst ever, with a preponderance of Mongolians, but also the quality of training/coaching is very poor.  Also take into consideration the way he has treated the rank of yokozuna like a public convenience these past years  - in and out of tournaments like a revolving door - , and it is nothing short of a joke for him to be constantly described as the greatest. He isn't fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Taiho and Chiyonofuji.

If I was in the Kyokai's position I wouldn't award him ichidai toshiyori.

At the same time, the Kyokai needs to look at their difficulties in recruiting - why for instance is there so few rikishi from Hokkaido, for so long the hotbed of so many great rikishi? The sight of so many foreigners being fast-tracked to the top, intentionally or otherwise, is bound to be deterring youngsters who are less likely to acquiesce to authority than previous generations.

 

Swami

"He isn't fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Taiho and Chiyonofuji"

That statement deserves nothing but raucous laughter!!!

Edited April 24, 2021 by Stupidface