Non-K-November basho 2020 Discussion (spoiler space)

[Amamaniac]

If the win patten E/W continues, Terunofuji is in trouble...

[Seiyashi]

3 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

If the win patten E/W continues, Terunofuji is in trouble...

Thankfully Tochinoshin broke it. Although his and Terunofuji's knees may want to have a word with their owners about all that tsuridashi they've been doing lately...

[Seiyashi]

Ross Mihara putting some hilariously serious shade on Mitakeumi on the EN-NHK broadcast, bordering on the unprofessional:

"Mitakeumi's the sekiwake with a surprisingly poor record against Takayasu... six and fourteeeeen?"

"Mitakeumi, the seki-wacki..."

"So we get baaad Mitakeumi today; the seki-whacki being whacked around by Takayasu..."

Edited November 18, 2020 by Seiyashi

[Akinomaki]

24 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

If the win patten E/W continues, Terunofuji is in trouble...

21 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Thankfully Tochinoshin broke it. Although his and Terunofuji's knees may want to have a word with their owners about all that tsuridashi they've been doing lately...

With the new W-W-E-E pattern, now Takakeisho is on the losing side

Edited November 18, 2020 by Akinomaki

[Seiyashi]

Just now, Akinomaki said:

With the new W-W-E-E pattern, now Takakeisho is on the losing side

Nooooo! Say it isn't so!

(in best rapid-fire financial adviser voice) Previous performance is no indicator of presentorfutureperformance.Investmentinsumoproductssuchaskachikoshibingoareattheinvestorsrisk..."

[robnplunder]

Another 2nd half collapse in progress for Mitakeumi ... tsk, tsk.

 

[since_94]

Am I the only one who finds the majority of Takakeisho’s fights incredibly boring? The musubi no ichiban is supposed to be the culmination, the high point of the afternoon’s entertainments, no? 

Yawn. Color me unimpressed.

[Kaninoyama]

36 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

He got Ruden tomorrow.   A 9-2 Ruden will not be easy for the M17 ranked one.  What do you think?  I am hoping Shimanoumi to beat him.  

The Twerk might be too much for Shimanoumi to handle. 

[pricklypomegranate]

18 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

Another 2nd half collapse in progress for Mitakeumi ... tsk, tsk.

Yeah, though it wasn't the finish move, Takayasu's attempted hatakikomi was devastating to Mitakeumi's balance. He was basically careening of the dohyo. 

Fantastic Tobizaru performance against Takanosho today. I think the latter was overeager and then his centre of balance was way too forward, thus falling victim to Tobizaru's newly infamous hatakikomi. Kotoshoho did well resisting Takakeisho's thrusts, but was also overeager and zipped right out. 

Enho had a nasty fall. I think he might go kyujo, or just do an Ishiura and stick it out futilely and get demoted to Juryo anyways. Just when we thought he was coming up. Sigh... 

If Shimanoumi wins the yusho, I think both yokozunas need to send gift baskets because the YDC will certainly be emboldened by a Takakeisho win. Show that makujiri power, Shimanoumi! Resist the twerk! You are so close!

Edited November 18, 2020 by pricklypomegranate

[robnplunder]

I think Enho went kyujo after the match.  I am not surprised.  

Both Takanosho & Kotoshoho's losses were disappointing.  They didn't help their case against Tobizaru and Takakeisho, respectively.   

[Amamaniac]

54 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

He got Ruden tomorrow.   A 9-2 Ruden will not be easy for the M17 ranked one.  What do you think?  I am hoping Shimanoumi to beat him.  

I think this is a perfect day 12 matchup.  I have been quite impressed with the match setting ever since Isegahama oyakata returned (from self-imposed exile) to head the Judges Committee.  You are absolutely right about Ryuden and Shimanoumi.  Both men are very much in this yusho race.  Ryuden seems to have more of a "bounce in his step" (sorry) these days.  But even though Shimanoumi is down at the bottom of the division, somehow guys in his position pick up a strange momentum that carries them forward (as we saw in January, not to mention July).  

I always root for the underdog, so yeah, I too am hoping Shimanoumi will win tomorrow.

[Kintamayama]

14 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

I noticed that you left the "new-fannyed tachiai" remarks out of the Rikishi Talk version posted on your Sumo Newsletter.  

I usually leave the punny stuff out of the newsletter, where I assume a very serious, professional identity. Here, I can bare my butt.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Kintamayama

[Seiyashi]

1 hour ago, since_94 said:

Am I the only one who finds the majority of Takakeisho’s fights incredibly boring? The musubi no ichiban is supposed to be the culmination, the high point of the afternoon’s entertainments, no? 

Yawn. Color me unimpressed.

Today wasn't a particularly good example since Kotoshoho basically defeated himself. But in any case, I would agree if this was the Takakeisho of a year ago, since he had one game plan and no way out if opponents got his belt, but this basho's Takakeisho is very different.

If you're a Star Wars geek, the best way to convey this is that Takakeisho basically took Soresu lessons. If not, Takakeisho switched his all-out oshi style for a more conservative king-of-the-hill type sumo, which is an entirely different level of subtlety. It boils down to well-timed dodges and shifts and hits to interrupt the flow of opponents' attacks; it's basically difficult to pinpoint how Takakeisho won the bout without looking at the slow-motion almost all the time. Case in point; his defeat of Myogiryu two days ago basically started when he clobbered Myogiryu sideways with the entirety of an outstretched arm, but in live-action, it looked as though Myogiryu had just slipped and lost the plot. There's another one where he basically dodges and shoves the shoulder of - Daieisho, I think it was - and that was enough to win him the bout. I agree it doesn't necessarily make for spectacular sumo to watch on a per-bout basis, but it has immense replay value compared to say Terunofuji where, the moment someone decides to morozashi him and get kimedashied, you know what's coming. 

And there is the narrative value. I suspect part of the reason why Takakeisho is not making for a spectacular musubi is because of the five senior sanyaku, he has the least in terms of narrative value, having been a relatively one-dimensional rikishi with no recent Cinderella story or crunch-time need to perform. That's not the case for Asanoyama, who was hyped to hell and back what with being the first ozeki promotion in more than a year and his stablemaster's imminent retirement, or for Shodai who finally made good after three attempts. Nor will it be the case for the two of them and the yokozuna in January, where they are all literally fighting for their careers and ranks. In contrast, Takakeisho after making ozeki had a sharp shock due to his injury, then posted relatively ho-hum numbers since then even if he was in for the 15 days. 

So this is the first time where Takakeisho is really asserting himself at the rank with no one overshadowing him, and it is both thematically appropriate and suitably-forward looking that he is choosing to do it with a defensive style of oshi-zumo that also minimises his risk of injury. God knows we need some stability and assertiveness from the top end of the banzuke at last, after a year of makujiri stories. None of us could see how Takakeisho was getting to yokozuna with that old oshi double-blast tsuppari, but it's now a distinct possibility with the way he's fighting. 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Seiyashi

[Amamaniac]

33 minutes ago, since_94 said:

Am I the only one who finds the majority of Takakeisho’s fights incredibly boring? The musubi no ichiban is supposed to be the culmination, the high point of the afternoon’s entertainments, no? 

Yawn. Color me unimpressed.

Your impression is justified, and I too have, for the longest time, found little in his sumo to get excited about.  

But I am still going to try and defend the young one.  First of all, he wouldn't have secured promotion to Ozeki if he didn't have some serious skills.  Yeah, oshidashi, oshidashi, oshidashi, tsukiotoshi, oshidashi, oshidashi, hatakikomi is not a colourful palate.  Moreover, his body type and that of Hakuho are night and day (n.b., most people fall asleep at night, if you know what I'm trying to say).  But there are signs of true sumo brilliance in Takakeisho, and today's bout was no exception.  While Kotoshoho is relatively green, he definitely has the goods.  Takakeisho's brilliance, however, lay (1)  in the fact that he remained calm and (2) in the fact that he knew just the right moment to move out of his opponent's way. Those might be little things in terms of being visually unimpressive, but in martial arts battles such as these, those little things are huge.

[pricklypomegranate]

31 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

I think Enho went kyujo after the match.  I am not surprised.  

In my opinion, he should just cut his losses here, get the surgery for the neck/back, rest in January, come up from lower Juryo in March. I know it's a stain on the record to be demoted to Juryo before coming back up, but perceptions are starting to change about this (Terunofuji, Chiyonokuni) and he's a small wrestler and not the next Yokozuna hope. He's done significantly better than most of rikishi of his size (Mainoumi excepting) and was expected to be injury prone anyways. If he insists on continuing, it's going to be a slow, painful downhill slope and he's going to miss the sekitori buffer needed to heal. 

10 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

If you're a Star Wars geek, the best way to convey this is that Takakeisho basically took Soresu lessons. If not, Takakeisho switched his all-out oshi style for a more conservative king-of-the-hill type sumo, which is an entirely different level of subtlety. It boils down to well-timed dodges and shifts and hits to interrupt the flow of opponents' attacks; it's basically difficult to pinpoint how Takakeisho won the bout without looking at the slow-motion almost all the time. Case in point; his defeat of Myogiryu two days ago basically started when he clobbered Myogiryu sideways with the entirety of an outstretched arm, but in live-action, it looked as though Myogiryu had just slipped and lost the plot. There's another one where he basically dodges and shoves the shoulder of - Daieisho, I think it was - and that was enough to win him the bout. I agree it doesn't necessarily make for spectacular sumo to watch on a per-bout basis, but it has immense replay value compared to say Terunofuji where, the moment someone decides to morozashi him and get kimedashied, you know what's coming. 

Agree. People often talk about Takakeisho being limited, but now I too am starting to see that his style is a lot more subtle - he's not just pushing and thrusting anymore, it's combined with a good sense of timing, dodges, slapdowns, etc. With this, he's adding extra depth, extra dimension to his sumo, and it's not just conventional oshi-zumo anymore. A clandestine, and potentially successful method of getting to Yokozuna - Takakeisho is a lot smarter than most think. 

[yohcun]

Two M17 yushos this year (and a close call with Tobizaru in September), and they're still leaving it this late to give co-leader Shimanoumi some higher opponents. Tradition dies hard, but come on.

[robnplunder]

31 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Today wasn't a particularly good example since Kotoshoho basically defeated himself.

+1.  I sure hope Kotoshoho learns from today's match.  

[Seiyashi]

3 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

+1.  I sure hope Kotoshoho learns from today's match.  

He's a freshling and has time to grow. On the other hand, if it was Mitakeumi attempting that, he really has no business continuing to lock up a sanyaku slot.

[Eikokurai]

2 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

If the win patten E/W continues, Terunofuji is in trouble...

Kiribayama ruined the day.

[Morty]

Enho must be one giant bruise after that fall. That made me wince, then wince again. 

[since_94]

Yes, Enho is not going to want to take too many falls like that one, with a view to career longevity and remaining ambulatory in his old age. It was quite an impact from quite a height.

[Amamaniac]

3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Ross Mihara putting some hilariously serious shade on Mitakeumi on the EN-NHK broadcast, bordering on the unprofessional:

"Mitakeumi's the sekiwake with a surprisingly poor record against Takayasu... six and fourteeeeen?"

"Mitakeumi, the seki-wacki..."

"So we get baaad Mitakeumi today; the seki-whacki being whacked around by Takayasu..."

I usually like Ross Mihara and his commentating, but if he went with "seki-wacki" instead of "sucky-wake", then I may just have to burn my fan club membership card. 

[Amamaniac]

2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

I usually leave the punny stuff out of the newsletter, where I assume a very serious, professional identity. Here, I can bare my butt.

You and about every rikishi on the dohyo! 

[Seiyashi]

11 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Ross Mihara putting some hilariously serious shade on Mitakeumi on the EN-NHK broadcast, bordering on the unprofessional:

"Mitakeumi's the sekiwake with a surprisingly poor record against Takayasu... six and fourteeeeen?"

"Mitakeumi, the seki-wacki..."

"So we get baaad Mitakeumi today; the seki-whacki being whacked around by Takayasu..."

I usually like Ross Mihara and his commentating, but if he went with "seki-wacki" instead of "sucky-wake", then I may just have to burn my fan club membership card. 

 (out of reacts)

To be fair to Mitakeumi, he's not sucky all the time, but he's certainly very streaky - maybe streakywhacky.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Seiyashi

[Hakuryuho]

4 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

 Yeah, oshidashi, oshidashi, oshidashi, tsukiotoshi, oshidashi, oshidashi, hatakikomi is not a colourful palate. 

Woah, don't you forget his beautiful tsukidashis he deploys from time to time!